Just starting out

[GSells]

Lol! That’s right I also started out with a howa , then a Remington ( which I still have !) and then a Savage fcp hsp .308 w ( very accurate rifle out of the box !) In this forum on photos of member Guns . I did a Blog ! Yes I know another #^}^* Blog Lol! Of building up my Rem 700 ! Have a look at that as I eventually built that up to get into A standard. That’s right my yougest shot a 90.7 at 800 yds about 5 yr ago . So it can be done , build up a rifle bit by bit .
I still love my rem . Still shoots ragged one hole groups at 100 m ! I use it now for PRS and LR Hunting.
Remingtons are great , but not out of the box usually. But once built you’ll never sell it . Or at least that is how it was for me ! Love at first sight .

[GSells]

I found it for ya ! viewtopic.php?t=5717

[Jakec27]

Is it easy enough to get a Howa rebarreled with a good target barrel and get a half decent stock?

[GSells]

Is it easy enough to get a Howa rebarreled with a good target barrel and get a half decent stock?

Yep very easy . There are so many stocks that are inletted for Howas and very easy to re barrel . Howa action are a flat based Remington action , well pretty much ! Some Comp actions such as the Stolle Panda are pretty much like the howa ( correct me if I’m wrong?) A flat based Remington action !

Look I don’t regret doing up my Remington, it was a lot of fun getting it to shoot as good as a proper target rifle and very satisfying!

However, it did set me back about 3 yrs doing so ! I would have progressed quicker going straight to my stolle panda setup straight away ! But now I have a Classic Rem that I’ll never part with and had a ball doing it !
Of late , I’ve forgotten what this sport is all about ? The pressures of Repping for country and state , although a great and wonderful honour. Can make one forget why they are actually participating in the sport !
Well the main reason and yes I think we can all have a “ Dory “ on this is to have
FUN !! And mainly saying this to myself , someone that’s a bit washed up and tired !

[Gyro]

Some fundamentals re what makes a potentially suitable F Rifle Jake : A solid-bottomed-receiver i.e. an action that does not have a magazine cutout. This makes for a STIFF/RIGID action that allows a heavy barrel to be hung off it. This obviously also makes it a single shot rifle.

If you hang a heavy barrel off a light receiver that has only thin rails left after large cutouts the receiver will flex, which on it's own will be detrimental to accuracy, let alone the fact it will gradually destroy the bedding around the receiver.

You want a heavy barrel because F Class fires 10-15 shot strings that will make a thinner diameter barrel get bloody hot and likely accuracy will suffer, besides the fact you will soon burn the barrel out running it very hot.

You want a stock that's set up for prone shooting, which is a lot about having the pistol grip with a vertical shape. This vertical shape allows your hand to be in a more naturally relaxed position and should ideally put the trigger finger in a nice relaxed position and not having to reach out to operate the trigger smoothly.

You need a good trigger. A good trigger is critical as you are able to adjust it down to a lighter release weight. Shooting a rifle with a heavy ( heavy is relative !! ) trigger can seriously compromise accuracy as this normally means you need to grip the rifle a lot more firmly, which straight away adds in a bunch more variables that can bite you. The "gun handling" side of shooting is VERY important.

I could go on but my point is a more serious "Target Rifle" does need to tick the above boxes, at the very least. A hunting rifle is a very different setup. Regards Rob.

[wsftr]

Is it easy enough to get a Howa rebarreled with a good target barrel and get a half decent stock?

i started out with a Howa, rebarreled it and went from there. I used to blow spotters out at 300 with it.
It had a Hogue laminate stock to start with - too much angle in it, but it did me for a solid couple of years before I built something around a Barnard.
You might be pleasantly surprised how well non optimal setups can do. Its like a lot of things in this sport the "optimal" setups don't bring a lot more points, they are incremental improvements when combined with experience and good wind skills that will keep you in the hunt.

[Gyro]

And have a look Jake at the 45 minute video by Litz ( who knows better than most how much BS surrounds shooting and accuracy ) .

[benculton]

And have a look Jake at the 45 minute video by Litz ( who knows better than most how much BS surrounds shooting and accuracy ) .

Do you have a link to the video?

[Gyro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lpeTTrbcGw

[williada]

Its right up your alley Gyro - controlling recoil - mine too. Nothing like learning to read conditions. Remember being doubted over using faster burning powders such as 2209 in the SAUM. Getting that ignition right is sooo important. Don't underestimate it. Good shooting guys. Thanks for posting Gyro, I enjoyed it.

[bruce moulds]

And have a look Jake at the 45 minute video by Litz ( who knows better than most how much BS surrounds shooting and accuracy ) .

and who knows how to spin a bit of his own
bruce.

[Gyro]

Its right up your alley Gyro - controlling recoil - mine too. Nothing like learning to read conditions. Remember being doubted over using faster burning powders such as 2209 in the SAUM. Getting that ignition right is sooo important. Don't underestimate it. Good shooting guys. Thanks for posting Gyro, I enjoyed it.

Well stone the crows, I don't believe it ...........

Litz has obviously taken an extreme stance in that vid but he makes many good points.

Now a little story re some playtime over the last month where myself and a mate ( he doesn't work and I've only been to work for about 8 days ) have spent a whole lot of time setting up and shooting two very different rifles. Ones a serious F Open rifle chambered in a .284 Ackley and the other a Barrel-blocked 7/300WSM on a bipod. I chambered them both. His is the F Open gun and mine's the 7/300.

Our range is only 5 minutes away on a farm on the edge of town so once we got the case prep sorted it was off to do some shooting. His F Open gun is obviously going to shoot bloody well as was pretty clear from the very first few 100 yard targets. As it should as it's built from a bunch of top level components, has a full diameter 30" barrel, weighs near 10kg and is running Berger 180 Hybrids.

My 7/300 started out poorly and was throwing shots all over the place. It was being shot off a bipod so obviously it was never going to compete with a "full race" F Open gun shot off rests, but I still reckoned something was clearly wrong. I never twigged to the problem until about 80 shots into load development and sure enough the borescope showed the bore was badly coppered up. So I scrubbed the copper out and went to a shorter bearing surface bullet and it's now a 1/2MOA gun. The story is cut short, buy hopefully u get the idea.

Sorry about the waffle folks but my point is shooting well is so much about the basic fundamentals. As Litz said it doesn't have to be horrendously complicated, as some make it !!!!!

And u don't necessarily have to throw lots of money at it. Great if u can afford to but the money on it's own won't get u on the podium. Leaving aside the Wind Reading, which takes years to come to terms with, it's a lot about having a good solid 'forgiving' shooting platform. Anyone can shoot to a high level off a dodgy rifle platform in easy conditions but if you want to shoot consistently well in all conditions u gotta have a 'proper' platform.

That's a brief version folks, assuming anyone's still awake.

[williada]

I think Brian Litz was pitching his comments to newbies to build their confidence as they develop their experience. Don't think any newbie expects to be a world champion in a couple of shoots, but wants to be competitive and to learn the ropes. Brian's work has been positive for the sport and many people like to be seen as knowledgeable and quote others such as Litz which is perfectly acceptable and is a base for further development. It is a journey. But there are those among us with a lots of experience too who like to see work repeated and affirmed but can equally discount some propositions of others as critical thinkers where our data does not agree. So I agree with comments on recoil, reading the wind and ignition and so the half minute rifle will suffice to learn the basics, but only a sound wind reader like Mr Litz would be capable of winning regularly with such gear IMO and would struggle against some of the scores shot recently at Bendigo. Perhaps to imply that reasoning of a 1/2 minute rifle to a newbie is stretching it a bit for the marketing stakes.

There are a lot more people in Australia whose skill and gear are now first class because they have actively sought improvement and mentoring or been involved in development programs to share knowledge. Pioneering efforts are becoming a thing of the past for many, so newbies with their standard gear will benefit greatly by being exposed to further knowledge to improve their standard gear.

But the 1/2 minute rifle skates on thin ice at long range and even for those with sound wind reading skills and better judgement in reading apparent aiming mark shifts in mirage. A half minute rifle only allows for a half minute group with a buffer of 1/4 minute either side to keep in the ICFRA 6 ring. So a quarter minute change in conditions at the longs soon puts you on the edge. Got to to imagine very few people are capable of condition reading with that level of competence on a regular basis and not a cherry picked one. A look at Hextasystems targets on the web will soon demonstrate 1000 yard shooting in lots of club shoots puts the average Joe's groups upwards of a minute of angle. The skill in long range shooting in managing a larger group. On the other hand a rifle capable of 1/4 minute doubles the wriggle room. The quarter minute rifle at short range usually blows out at the longs as does every rifle. Sound results cannot be achieved unless the shooting platform is top shelf. That is not to say a top armourer can't produce one from standard gear but a newbie will struggle. If newbies are disappointed with results, give them a top rifle to shoot to demonstrate problems are more to do with their gear and setup. From another source, it was Interesting Mr Litz was collecting data on positive compensation in more recent times.

At the elite level, a half minute rifle leaks too many x's. Matches and aggregates are won with these. Think most will pay great attention to component specifications to achieve a rifle capable of repeatable fine accuracy. Yep, we sort all bullets because one flyer can lose a match in good conditions. I note Mitch Bailey's miss at Bendigo. Yet to see the perfect batch of bullets even with the hype. To that extent I think Bruce makes a good point. Where wind changes are significantly greater than grouping ability, it pays to learn to read the wind. Nothing new there.

[Gyro]

But Williada, MANY rifles that are 'capable' of 1/4 minute will in reality, on a normal day do 1/2 minute. Haven't we all got a cupboard full of them ?

[bruce moulds]

But Williada, MANY rifles that are 'capable' of 1/4 minute will in reality, on a normal day do 1/2 minute. Haven't we all got a cupboard full of them ?

depending on how honest the gun owner is with themselves.
bruce.