Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

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williada
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#16 Postby williada » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:41 pm

Sound advice Brett. VRA stocks it and you can buy it on the net.

John23
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#17 Postby John23 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:09 pm

Interesting about the helmar

The manufacturer is about 10 mins from home

I will check it out

Trevor Rhodes
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Location: Woodbrook Vic.

Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#18 Postby Trevor Rhodes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:50 pm

Helmar is great stuff, after cleaning l bore scope and carbons is gone. Just don't over scrub or you need a range for it to settle down. The Helmar copper remover isn't as good, needs improving.

pjifl
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#19 Postby pjifl » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:09 pm

As an offshoot to this thread - and maybe it should be another thread.

How does one test a product for barrel damage. It would be nice to have some protocol that was approved by barrel makers as a guideline for testing a products. I am thinking more about cleaning solutions and not abrasives here.

I have used many concoctions - mainly from industrial paint solvents - but with some care. Some of the better ones with suitable ingredients have been taken off the market. So people look around for alternatives and I wonder just how much dedicated testing has been done by makers of various concoctions. I am not pointing the finger here - but I do have my doubts about many makers of barrel cleaning products to genuinely test their products for the intended application.

I also wonder just how bad ammonia really is. These days it seems to be part of all advertising liturgy to boast 'no ammonia'. Ammonia content seems to have been reduced in some products inducing people to leave a compound soaking for extended times. I have used ammonia containing mixtures and never really saw a problem. But there could be damage which is largely invisible. In industry, Ammonia is used in stainless containers - often at higher pressures and various temperatures. Of course there are different types of stainless in general divided between the Martensetic and Austnetic types. Could careful use of ammonia be less harmful than some products being pushed as alternatives ?? Of course Ammonia is mainly of use against Copper.

One of the real complications is that with more absorbed moisture (Methyl Alcohol is very susceptible) and more dissolved Oxygen, corrosion can be initiated when otherwise we would not expect it. But then stainless starved of oxygen in a marine environment loses much of its corrosion resistance. Hence many keel bolts in Yachts may fail unexpectedly.

Back to some protocol.

1/ A simple mass loss test is easy to do with very sensitive lab balances. But it would need to be done with varying amounts of moisture involved and this makes it a far more complex set of experiments.

2/ Some etch test looking at the boundaries between metallic crystals. This type of damage is often caused by an electrolyte, hence the water content matters very much although it can happen without water present in some cases. Perhaps a sample of barrel stainless mirror polished then tested with a metallurgical microscope. Possibly then 'stained' or somehow treated looking for crevice damage.

Barrel makers will undoubtedly see different types of damage and many will have asked metallurgists about the problem. Based on observed different types of damage, any suggestions for some protocol would be welcome.

Peter Smith.

BRETT B
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#20 Postby BRETT B » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:58 am

Trevor Rhodes wrote:Helmar is great stuff, after cleaning l bore scope and carbons is gone. Just don't over scrub or you need a range for it to settle down. The Helmar copper remover isn't as good, needs improving.


Trevor ,I will have to disagree! My testing over the last 12 months has shown me that the Copper Remover works as good as Boretech in about the same time frame. I find I dont need to use much of the copper remover as the Carbon remover will remove most of the fine to medium copper fouling .
BRETT BUNYAN F CLASS OPEN SHOOTER W.A.

superx10
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#21 Postby superx10 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:54 pm

I am another one who uses Helmar carbon and copper remover, it works great, its Australian made, and it is relatively cheap, and they have a very user-friendly web site for internet purchases. I also found the carbon remover removes most of it but all my projectiles are HBN coated.

Trevor Rhodes
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Location: Woodbrook Vic.

Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#22 Postby Trevor Rhodes » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:28 pm

BRETT B wrote:
Trevor Rhodes wrote:Helmar is great stuff, after cleaning l bore scope and carbons is gone. Just don't over scrub or you need a range for it to settle down. The Helmar copper remover isn't as good, needs improving.


Trevor ,I will have to disagree! My testing over the last 12 months has shown me that the Copper Remover works as good as Boretech in about the same time frame. I find I dont need to use much of the copper remover as the Carbon remover will remove most of the fine to medium copper fouling .

Hi Brett
the boretech copper remover is almost instant, takes most copper out at the range then l leave some in the barrel overnight to remove what's left. Where as the helmar l'v left over night with copper still remaining in the barrel. But l will have to persist with the Helmar as the Boretech is hard to get over here.

williada
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#23 Postby williada » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:59 pm

Hey Trev, I would be interested to know, and assuming the Helmar was not contaminated by dipping the jag and patch into the bottle, whether you got anymore blue on the patch having previously cleaned it with Boretech and wiped out?

Trevor Rhodes
Posts: 130
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Location: Woodbrook Vic.

Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#24 Postby Trevor Rhodes » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:03 pm

williada wrote:Hey Trev, I would be interested to know, and assuming the Helmar was not contaminated by dipping the jag and patch into the bottle, whether you got anymore blue on the patch having previously cleaned it with Boretech and wiped out?

l use alum jags but rely on the borescope.

williada
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#25 Postby williada » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:09 pm

Thanks Trevor.

bruce moulds
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#26 Postby bruce moulds » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:36 am

take a tip from me.
do not leave boretech in a barrel.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

benculton
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#27 Postby benculton » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:54 am

bruce moulds wrote:take a tip from me.
do not leave boretech in a barrel.
bruce.


Which boretech product are you referring to Bruce when you say not to leave it in a barrel? I use the boretech eliminator as instructed on the label and it says you can leave a small amount in there. Why do you believe you shouldn't be?

Cheers.

Ben.

KHGS
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#28 Postby KHGS » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:50 pm

benculton wrote:
bruce moulds wrote:take a tip from me.
do not leave boretech in a barrel.
bruce.


Which boretech product are you referring to Bruce when you say not to leave it in a barrel? I use the boretech eliminator as instructed on the label and it says you can leave a small amount in there. Why do you believe you shouldn't be?

Cheers.

Ben.


I use & recommend Boretech solvents, caution should be exercised when leaving it in the barrel for extended periods. Reason being is it is a water based product & offers no protection from air born moisture in high humidity climates. This is not the fault of the solvent and is climatic. I leave it in my barrels overnight here as our climate is quite dry with low humidity.
Keith H.

benculton
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#29 Postby benculton » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:39 pm

I use & recommend Boretech solvents, caution should be exercised when leaving it in the barrel for extended periods. Reason being is it is a water based product & offers no protection from air born moisture in high humidity climates. This is not the fault of the solvent and is climatic. I leave it in my barrels overnight here as our climate is quite dry with low humidity.
Keith H.


Thanks for the reply Keith. I live in South West Victoria. So not overly humid but not dry by any means. When you leave it in your barrel overnight do you then run clean patches through it the next morning an oil afterwards? Rifle only gets used once a week the majority of the time so would be interested to know what you would be doing in that situation.

Thanks.

Ben.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2482
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Re: Submerging barrels in cleaning solutions

#30 Postby bruce moulds » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:19 am

i read the instruction on the bottle to leave it in the barrel.
the stuff dried out and left a concrete like coating which took multi work to get out.
since then the barrel has never shot as well grouping.
it also changes p.o.i. after 5 - 6 shots.
maybe o.k if you don't leave it in, but the instructions said to do so.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM


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