We Never Make Mistakes

[Tim L]

I think the bit that many fail to appreciate is the scorers role in this.
Perhaps we need to tighten things up there.
Scorers MUST announce every shot fired. "First sighter tgt 11" etc.
Fail to do so, lose a point off the scorers score. Too harsh?
The problem is that the scorer has 2 things to look at, the shooters barrel and the monitor for any extra shots.
As stated above, an X appearing on a shooters target might not be disclaimed by the shooter, but if the scorer is on the ball, they know.
Worst outcome, 2 shots on target (sometimes 3) shooter gets the highest value and an optional. Those are the rules.
This doesn't, however, deal with lost shots.
For all the annecdotal stories of what has happened in the past, any decision should be restricted to the verifiable evidence at hand. "On balance of probabilities" it is very accurate to simply say the shooter shot the wrong target. That is, probably, what happened, but is that fair?
We are relying on the scorer, whose attention is divided. Realistically a call of "missed shot" should be accompanied by "extra shot" from someone else.
Perhaps the solution is a mandatory dely on ETs. This gives scorers time.
Or maybe we need to go back to scorers and check scorers with redefined responsibilities.
The check scorer monitors the shooter and calls shots. The scorer monitors the screen and calls scores.
Working together they could eliminate cross fires and we could take lost shots more seriously.

[jasmay]

@ Pete Fox

My understanding is the S&T’s must follow the SSR’s as laid out by the NRAA, this is primarily because most all range standing orders and in particular insurances are laid out under the guise of shooting under the NRAA’s SSR’s….

So if a jurisdiction is going rogue, I’d be asking what exact rules are they shootings to and for a copy of said rules.

Everyone needs to familiarize themselves with chapter 10 “Protests & Appeals”…

The RO’s, including the CRO has no right to deny anyone a shot under protest…

Again, unless people are going to challenge these issues using the rules we have, what is the point of writing new rules? For us not to use them as well?

There are provisions for appeal, in 2019 I was scrutinized unfairly at a queens by several shooters, we ended up on the mound on the phone to the NRAA’s rules director for a decision regarding my appeal/protest on the mound, my appeal was upheld in this instance, I won my argument because I knew the rules and wasn’t going to allow any bull shit.

I believe there are already mechanisms to deal with these problems, they are simply not being applied.

Sorry to sound blunt, but if people are not going to apply the rules we have, new ones won’t help.

[PeteFox]

Jason, I admire your tenacity.

Pete

[Rich4]

Well said, although I personally don’t take it that seriously I have seen favouritism in scoring and it only serves to discourage new shooters

[Rogue22]

I’d just like to clarify for all though, that in regard to the shooter missing the target at the NQRA Kings. In that instance the rules were followed to the letter.

The shooter put in a protest, and the executive committee discussed this at length in two separate meetings. After reviewing all the available information, it was unanimously decided that he did miss the target and the shooter was informed of this. Case closed.

So all this talk of rules not being followed is unsubstantiated.

@ Pete Fox, were you there to witness anything different to this?

[PeteFox]

Oh dear
you seriously need some hand holding. you are reading stuff that's not there
As I have previously stated - you obviously haven't read and understood the the first post.
Exaxctly where in the bit between NQRA Kings and QRA Kings did I mention not sticking to the rules?

What I did was question the ridiculous assumption that it is possible to hit four targets away. You have offered sideways sliding rear bags as an explanation. Those SEB Bigfoots are no good - forgot to put sand in and didn't take the grease off the bottom and then the wind blew it sideways.

[heritage5]

Rogue22 the SSRs were not followed after shooting a 60.7 60.5 and X666XXXXX The next shot did not register the RO was called I was asked to check the I was on the correct target, the rifle was still pointing at the 9 o'clock side of the X ring on my target the RO checked all other targets no one had a additional shot the Ro instructed me to shoot again X I then fired a protest shot X ,the Ro by instructing me to shoot again had applied 4.5.15 Misses on electronic targets .
I shot the vic kings the aps match 1 the Pacific pm the Duncan and the Qra kings with no shots missing ,so it's highly unlikely to be my amo .
I sent two emails to the NQRA and followed up with a phone call , after two months of no reply it took a call from my state chairman to finally get a Bullshit response.
My best guess is when I fired that shot at the NQRA kings there was a 600mph gust that no one else saw.

Guy Grining

[KHGS]

Rogue22 the SSRs were not followed after shooting a 60.7 60.5 and X666XXXXX The next shot did not register the RO was called I was asked to check the I was on the correct target, the rifle was still pointing at the 9 o'clock side of the X ring on my target the RO checked all other targets no one had a additional shot the Ro instructed me to shoot again X I then fired a protest shot X ,the Ro by instructing me to shoot again had applied 4.5.15 Misses on electronic targets .
I shot the vic kings the aps match 1 the Pacific pm the Duncan and the Qra kings with no shots missing ,so it's highly unlikely to be my amo .
I sent two emails to the NQRA and followed up with a phone call , after two months of no reply it took a call from my state chairman to finally get a Bullshit response.
My best guess is when I fired that shot at the NQRA kings there was a 600mph gust that no one else saw.

Guy Grining

I had a similar incident at the ACT Queens a few years ago. I fired a shot in the middle of my string and there was no registration, the RO was called and I elected to continue on and fired a protest shot at the end and lodged a written protest which was duly dismissed, so I finished with a 54 at 800 meters, I was running in the top five placing before that. There was no stray shot recorded to my left, I was on target B10 at the very end right hand target. I am right handed, so very difficult to cross fire to the left!!! The BS reason given for dismissing the protest was……..wait for it, the first target to my left was being cleared for the next shooter, so I must have fired on it while it was being cleared!!!!!!! I feel for you Guy. Oh and target 10 had been taking 30 to 45 seconds to register SOME shots before I shot, so it was performing in a questionable manner and yes this had been reported to the RO before I commenced my string!!!!
Keith H.

[Steve N]

I know a few years ago question were being asked about the accuracy and reliability of the Konsberg target systems. Are these still being used?
Does the NRAA recommend or stipulate any minimum maintenance requirements or standards ETs have to meet before being permitted to be used for major competitions or is that just up to the local range personnel?
ETs have been in use for a long time and are a great tool if used correctly so it's a pity these problems still exist.

[wsftr]

Are the appropriate electronic checks done when no shot is presented. i.e. what is the algorithm that states indicates no shot - does that mean no mic registered anything? what did the individual mics state? Usually there is evidence there its just not able to be looked at deeply enough in the moment. The shot 4 targets away - did the time and FPS align with what the shooter was shooting and recorded during that string, I suspect based on the angle a mic from that side would have been triggered first)? Was there strong electronic evidence that it was related to the shooter or just an unexplained (or unowned?) shot?
I'm with Pete on this one the rules have to allow a fair shoot - a day later deep dive electronic analysis needs to be really strong in its evidence for a cross fire of that magnitude.