80 Grain projectiles

[richmac]

Hi all
I would like to ask a question and a honest opinion regarding the 80 grain projectiles that we are allowed to use in competition.
We are allowed to use Sierra 80 grain.Nosler 80 grain and also 80 Grain Amax.
Now that we have used these for a while do you think that these are on par with the 308 projectiles that are in legal use on the rifle range.
I think they are quite competitive for the shorts but I personally think they are not on a equal footing for the longs.
I would like honest comment on your views.
Cheers Rich

[Woody_rod]

Another fist fight coming up I see!!

This is a good question, and one I have been thinking about lately as I need to build my wife an F class standard rifle.

I dunno....I spend more time watching people shoot, than shooting myself, trying to gain knowledge about conditions and windage etc. Although some much more experienced shooters say that the 223 as it is now, is superior in a balistic sense, in practice, I dont think it shows through.

I honestly believe the heavier bullet has a slight edge in nasty conditions, no matter what rifle is used, or whom is shooting it. I am talking about ranges over 700 yards/meters.

At the highest level, the World Champs for example, a few point separates the top teams after 700 rounds, so the tiniest advantage could well mean the difference between winning and coming second. I was only speaking to an AU team member on Saturday about this exact subject....

Keep in mind that the "BC" comes from a number crunch from an "ideal projectile". The more one looks at the analysis of BC and how one bullet is superior to another, shows that it means less than some might think.

Meanwhile, I am trying to talk my wife out of using the 223, in favour of the 308 and HBCs. She is only concerned about the recoil....which is a negative aspect to be honest.

If you can try both side by side, see how they perform at the same range.

[johnk]

Now Ken Melgaard has won a championship with his .223, it's got to be a tad achidemic here in Australia.

On the other hand, in countries where unlimited bullet weight prevails, then the .223 would be decidedly out of its league against the .308, even if you could get a 90 grainer churning over fast enough in it.

John

[richmac]

Good point John
I think Ken done a wonderful job and he shot extremely well.
These wins are very rare though I think with a 223.
Has anyone got anythoughts regarding what type of projectile that could be used to make a 223 up to scratch with a 308......eg 82 grain Berger??
90 grainers ??? what is your experiences.
Rich

[Malcolm Hill]

Hi Rich
As everyone has said congratulations to Ken on the Bendigo Queens win, but it is certainly not the first for a 223. Second place there also was a 223 that I know was using Amax's that won the last day's long range agg. Our SA queens ("F" std) has been won by 223's for the last 3 years with the first three placings last year. There have probably been more wins around the place but results don't disclose what calibres are used. During our preparation for the National Teams in Bendigo it showed fairly clearly that the 223 with 80gn Amax didn't seem to have any disadvantage over the 308 Dyer HBC in any of the long range practices.(I had a 308 made up for the longs if they were shown to be better but that wasn't the case so I used a 223 for all the ranges at that event.) I think it would take a better wind coach than any I have seen to say that one bullet (Amax vs HBC) would have made a differnce given a small unseen wind shift at long range even though the HBC has a better B.C. on paper figures.
Regards Malcolm.

[richmac]

Hi Mal
You are spot on.I agree.
We need some good data and information to let us step up to the big 308 so we are on a level playing field at the long ranges as we are left behind I think.
Has anyone have any good sensible suggestions??
Rich

[AlanF]

I don't see it as a huge priority to equalise the ballistics of .223 and .308. If they were equal you might see the .308 becoming obsolete because the .223 has other advantages, the most important ones being less recoil, and better accuracy. I don't hear any calls for muzzle brakes and accuracy enhancements on .308s, so why should the .223 expect to get equal BC projectiles?

Alan

[richmac]

"why should the .223 expect to get equal BC projectiles? "
Why not?
Its a level playing field
We all pay the same entry fees.
There is no handicap system

[AlanF]

RichMac

What I was trying to say is that if you give the .223 an equal BC with the .308, then the .223 will have a clear overall advantage (for other reasons). Currently, they are very close, with the .223 being marginally better at the shorts, and the .308 marginally better at the longs. Why not keep it that way?

Alan

[richmac]

Allan
Thank you for your opinion
Rich

[KHGS]

Who said the .308 is better at the longs?????? Is there definitive proof of this? Surely this is just opinion, the same as 6.5's are better than 6mm's!!! You know if you keep telling the people that there is a recession....there will be one. Maybe the .308 is better..... I just haven't seen it yet. To be serious, I think the perceived difference is just that, a perception & it would take a lot of testing to prove the point one way or the other. By the way they are 5.65 mm's not .223's (my opinion), think about it.
Keith H.

[Woody_rod]

I have to agree with Keith. As I said, I only felt that the 308 was better at the longs, although have not really seen any definitive proof of that.

The SSRs, as most people would know, say that either the 5.56 x 45 NATO or 223Rem Can be used, as they are not strictly interchangeable.

Which gives an interesting question: does anyone actually use a 5.56 x 45 chamber and military style brass for f standard rather than the 223Rem?

[AlanF]

I should have qualified my statements with something like "general opinion would suggest...". In my experience the truth is usually somewhere near the middle of all the varying opinions. In terms of this subject I have heard numerous opinions that the HBC is giving the .308 an advantage at the longs, particularly in "wild" conditions. And the .223 is regarded widely as one of the most inherently accurate cartridges, hence its perceived advantage at the shorts.

My suggestion is that over the course of all ranges at a Queens, and with a typical variety of weather conditions, the currently allowed projectiles make for a close to "level playing field".

Alan

[KHGS]

I have to agree with Keith. As I said, I only felt that the 308 was better at the longs, although have not really seen any definitive proof of that.

The SSRs, as most people would know, say that either the 5.56 x 45 NATO or 223Rem Can be used, as they are not strictly interchangeable.

Which gives an interesting question: does anyone actually use a 5.56 x 45 chamber and military style brass for f standard rather than the 223Rem?

Yes Woody, I do. The chambers I cut are specifically for 80 grn Sierra's & 80 grn A-Max's, so it is 5.56 Match, NOT 5.56 Nato & I do use graded ADI brass. The difference between 5.56 & .223 is ...... .223 can be fired in a 5.56 chamber, but... NOT the reverse, if you do..... it will be at your own risk. I have seen some nasty results from doing so. We would do ourselves & the fullbore movement a service if we ceased to refer to 5.56 fullbore rifles as .223's which strictly speaking they are not.
Keith H.

[Woody_rod]

Keith,

For my interest and that of others, where do you get the brass? Is it the smaller capacity (stronger base??) that is the benefit of the brass, or some other reason?