F Class Groups size

[Cameron Mc]

Rod, I was trying to say how hard it is to shoot possibles on FO targets and asking the question how often do they happen.

I commended Bill on his efforts, I do know he is a good shooter.

Sorry if I / us eastern shooters can't shoot 100's all the time. When they do happen it is a good feeling.

Cameron

[AlanF]

...I think you guys in the east are lucky he doesnt travel much...

I think its F-Open's loss that Bill shoots mostly F-Std nowadays. Matt Paroz, who has a similar record of success in F-Open has done the same thing here in the east. We can only hope they'll come back one day and give the current crop a crack at them .

Alan

[RAVEN]

800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target NRA No LR-FC - F-Class Target Center based on the LR target for use at 1000 yards.. To be pasted over the LR target. Aiming Black (inches) X ring . . . . . . . . . . . 5.00 10 ring . . . . . . . . . . 10.00 9 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 20.00 8 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 30.00 7 ring . . . . . . . . . . 44.00 Rings in white (inches) 6 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 60.00 5 area . . . . . . . 72x72 Sq


Woody the Palma target is very generous as you can see
F Class in the USA compete on this target and now have had to create a past on X ring which is now half the size as it was before because it was too easy.
Most FO guns can shoot a 1MOA bull all day(exaggeration)
I am not questioning Bills ability but your perception of what is an accurate rifle for F-Class.
IMO
A rifle that shoots .3MOA and averages under .5MOA will be competitive in FO
A Gun that can average .75MOA would be suitable to shoot FS on the TR target V scored as 6

In SA there aren’t many 100's shot here I know of only 5 at our state range Lower Light which is Metres by the way
And a few elsewhere but they not very common.
I did some number crunching some time back and the average score to win a WA queens was 96 point something over the 3 days
The average in SA 92.5 approx.

Do some of your own number crunching and you will see what I mean?
There is one of 2 thing that’s going on either WA have easier conditions to shoot in the ranges are mostly yards or the rest of Australia can’t shoot.

Woody I ask before Y does anyone post results from OPM in WA it is always interesting to see how the rest of Aust F-Class are performing and who the pacesetters are.

BTW the TR target with the Super V is very similar to what the yanks now shoot on.
Cheers
RB

[AlanF]

...I did some number crunching some time back and the average score to win a WA queens was 96 point something over the 3 days
The average in SA 92.5 approx.

Do some of your own number crunching and you will see what I mean?
There is one of 2 thing that’s going on either WA have easier conditions to shoot in the ranges are mostly yards or the rest of Australia can’t shoot. ...

Its possibly a bit of both . Someone who may wish to comment is Mark Hamersley. He has recent experience in east and west.

Now if WA would put F-Open back in their Queens, a few of us might come over there to check out these easy conditions.

Alan

[Lynn Otto]

In SA there aren’t many 100's shot here I know of only 5 at our state range Lower Light which is Metres by the way
And a few elsewhere but they not very common.

Cheers
RB

Richard is right, and really that's how it should be, possible, not probable. That said, young Adam shot a 199 on Saturday at Kapunda, maybe I will shoot Std, by the time he hits his straps he will be a force to be reckoned with me thinks.

[RAVEN]

Me thinks that as well Lynn

[Woody_rod]

Now if WA would put F-Open back in their Queens, a few of us might come over there to check out these easy conditions

Might doesnt sell anything, say you will come, our company will sponsor it, that is a guarantee. The ball is in your court.

I did some number crunching some time back and the average score to win a WA queens was 96 point something over the 3 days

Ha ha that is very funny. Lets see now, 2008 Queens TR winner, Jim Corbett won with a score of 450.56V (average of 100 in TR) and , FS winner Bill Hallam 526/540 (which is 97.4 average). Jim won without dropping a point, you have to go a LONG way down the list of TR to find someone averaging 96, let alone winning.

RAVEN, I think you have a good imagination. Talk is cheap, get on a plane and come over. I will make sure FO happens via sponsorship, even if it is next year....we will then see how easy our conditions are.

It does rain a lot during the Queens, this has the added benefit of hiding tears I have heard.

[Matt P]

Richard
I really enjoyed the tech side of FO but I simply got the shits with turning up to prize shoots (if Clubs were good enough to have FO) and having 2-5 people to compete against. In FS there are always good numbers, until FO gets good numbers to OPM's and Queens shoots you wont see me shooting FO.

Matt Paroz

[RAVEN]

Hi Matt
I fully understand your move to FS and I respect that
Just between U and Me have been tempted myself well just an occasional fleeting thought.
But I’m into gadgets so FO fits my mind set
FS is the main game in F-Class that’s for sure.
In SA we are growing a strong FO group and most are starting in FS then moving up to whoops across to FO

[AlanF]

...say you will come, our company will sponsor it, that is a guarantee. The ball is in your court...

Good on you Rod. If that's what it takes to get F-Open back in your Queens then I would like to come over there as hopefully will some others. What would put the icing on the cake would be if Bill Hallam were to shoot Open? Its too late for me this year, but if there is sufficient interest, then 2010?

Alan

[RAVEN]

Woody like I said

Do some of your own number crunching and you will see what I mean?
There is one of 2 things that’s going on either WA have easier conditions to shoot in the ranges are mostly yards or the rest of Australia can’t shoot

My calcs were done some years ago when WA had FO at their queens and calculated on Champ targets I presume U have used the MCSI to calculate those score out of 100

I not questioning Bill or Jims marksman skills I know they would be at the pointy end of most major events

What I was questioning was your perception of an accurate rifle and your statement that a person has shot over a 3 day event and not drop a shot is a pretty bold statement in my view.
then to follow up and inform us that it was on a palma target is not that hard that is the reason they changed it in the USA.

I wouldn't see my self going to WA in the near future I would prefer to go to Bendigo or Canberra this for me is the main game for the one that lives in the middle SA.

Woody the range I shoot on would be one of the toughest in Australia
From what I have been told If you think you’re up to it come to our Queens
30-40knot fishtail we will see how many posssibles the sandgroper's get then.
RB

[Woody_rod]

Raven, I don't want to make an argument, but quoting scores at a match you were not shooting at as a reference as to how well someone might do if they were there, is purely wasting everyones time. You are making the assumption that the scores are easy, and that others could do better. You just never know what may happen, even at the easiest event (or so it may seem).

Raven If you come here and shoot, I hope you do well, you are certainly putting yourself at the top right now.

Personally, I never assume anything, and don't take anything for granted, it is a much wiser thing to do.

Its probably too late for this year, but our offer stands to provide sponsorship for the FO event in WA to get it going again. I have spoken to most of the main players in WA about this only a couple of weeks ago, all being very positive about the idea. It is simply a matter of having names to put forward as definite attenders - to me this would mean names and cheques in the mail (to WARA) to prove people are committed.

Woody Engineering is offering a complete rifle for a prize this year at the WA Queens (in FS or TR guise depending on who wins it). We will offer something worthwhile for the FO competition, and I am sure Bill and the other good sponsors we have here will also get involved next year. Ideas for a prize?

[AlanF]

...We will offer something worthwhile for the FO competition, and I am sure Bill and the other good sponsors we have here will also get involved next year. Ideas for a prize?

If the numbers make it affordable, then a barrel is a good prize for F-Open - we tend to go through them relatively quickly. And having a decent number of badges is important, say to the top 30%. BTW the best trophy effort I've seen in F-Open was at the 2007 SA Queens where (speak of the devil) Raven was the organiser. So I hope the current niggle between you is just that, because you both have your hearts in the right place for our sport.

Alan

[RAVEN]

Sorry Woody I don’t understand your comments at all I must be a bit simple I guess

quote]Raven, I don't want to make an argument, but quoting scores at a match you were not shooting at as a reference as to how well someone might do if they were there, is purely wasting everyones time. You are making the assumption that the scores are easy, and that others could do better. You just never know what may happen, even at the easiest event (or so it may seem).[/quote]

I have assumed nothing I haven’t quoted any scores from any events only and average of the queen’s winners around the country as I said done some time ago.

Raven If you come here and shoot, I hope you do well, you are certainly putting yourself at the top right now.

What is meant by this again I dont understand

You seem to have missed my point woody
And also the original question by the thread author

What size groups should a purpose built F Standard .223 produce at 300 Yards. What should I expect

I have asked you for some clarification on some statements posted by U
You either won’t or can’t answer the questions I have asked.


Forum or chatting on line can be easily misunderstood
I hope you read my posts with the emoticons woody other wise you will misunderstand my intent
So I will with draw from this debate

[Woody_rod]

Agreed that this thread is going off topic, but certainly has opened the way for getting FO going again in WA - weird way to achieve that for sure. Any reason is a good one.

Raven, interpretation is what threads are all about. It seemed by quoting scores and making remarks, you were elevating your own performance or that of other people somehow by quoting WA scores from some time or other - that is how I read your comments. Scores mean nothing in the absence of having shot on the same day. Everything is relative, the only real leveller in long range shooting are the conditions on the day.

I know a bit about communication, having written corporate policy, procedures and training programs at a national level for a number of years, and have Masters Degree level education in same..... but now it sounds like I am elevating myself above others (which I am not - see, easy to do isnt it). If an idea needs to be explained after first being read by the audience, it needs to be reworded so that the audience can understand the intent the first time. Just some friendly advice.

The way I put this to students is: "say what you mean, don't mean to say..."

Agreed that WA should post scores and reports. I am not personally involved in F class shooting as such, and have no intention of doing this. The f class guys have to get onto this themselves. Seems people are too busy to promote their own sport.

Raven, if you and I seem to the some sort of driving force, we should work together and get these ugly people (f class shooters) into some sort of arrangement whereby they are coming to Perth in September, 2010 to shoot in the newly invigorated FO class....which we have yet to get going. What do you say?

BTW, is there f class at the World Championships in Brisbane 2011? If so, who is going?

There is a big following of FS in WA, pulling people from FS to get them shooting FO was the only possibly negative aspect to the the FO shoot. I honestly think there are enough FS shooters on the ground now to fill the FS ranks (about 20-30 these days), and have the FO people shoot in their own class (in my own family, and close friends, there are at least 6 shooting this year in FS at the Queens). Any other reasons given so far not to run the FO are just excuses....

My apologies to the thread starter, but I think this is important. Maybe we can now move this bit of the thread to a new spot also Alan. "Getting FO going in WA" or something to that end.

Hell, if numbers are a tiny bit short, I will grab a rifle and shoot in FO to make the numbers. Be good for a laugh if nothing else.