Berger 180 Hybrids

[RAVEN]

Dave I purchased my 1:9 thinking that if it was as good as the 1:8.5
IT should shot the 168's even better and in reality the reverse was true

I would get another 1:9 but not a Krieger
cheers
RB

[DaveMc]

RB - It seems to be a lucky dip every time you get a new barrel - if only you knew you were buying a hummer beforehand. Just heard from Mark Fairbairn who says his Rock Creek gain twist is not handling the hybrids either (unstable) but it shoots the VLD's very well. They are going well in his Lilja 1 in 9 though.

Is it the barrels or Projectiles that are finicky - or both??

Dave

[RAVEN]

Dave I think it’s the barrels more so than projy's
As with all components there are always variables
RB

[LarryB]

AlanF,
After seeing your comment about the US FC Team hindering Hybrid exporting I thought I would let you know I left some of my left over Shehane ammo in Ireland after the Creedmoor matches last June. Maybe you can get a few from them:-) Not much use to them though, the bullets were only leaving the 32" 1-9 Bartlein at 2820 fps. Then decided to try them at 2000 m altitude during the SoA in Raton. All shots were loaded in new unfired Norma cases. Wish I had more new cases.
Larry Bartholome

[AlanF]

AlanF,
After seeing your comment about the US FC Team hindering Hybrid exporting I thought I would let you know I left some of my left over Shehane ammo in Ireland after the Creedmoor matches last June. Maybe you can get a few from them:-)

Thanks a million Larry. I must remember to repay you in kind .

Not much use to them though, the bullets were only leaving the 32" 1-9 Bartlein at 2820 fps. Then decided to try them at 2000 m altitude during the SoA in Raton. All shots were loaded in new unfired Norma cases. Wish I had more new cases.
Larry Bartholome

Congratulations on the magnificent effort at Raton in the Spirit of America Match. I'm wondering what your success with new brass says about the need for extra capacity of the Shehane case - I assume you were actually fire-forming the 6.5-284 brass in the competition? It also begs the question why do we spend so much time, effort and equipment cost on re-using our brass!

BTW, are people jamming or jumping the hybrids in the US? If you were jumping them in Ireland, that could be part of the reason for the low velocity.

Alan

[RAVEN]

Dave Wrote

The big question is this?? For me it was worth jamming and suffering by leaving the chamber loaded with a delay (Real problem when you have to unload for safety reasons).

Dave I have shot allot of VLD's over the years
It is my experience that you will pull more bullets if the throat or chambering is a freshy once the lands become a little worn 3-400 rounds this isn’t a potential problem anymore BTW I do use 3 thou neck tension
I have only ever had one bullet pull and that was my 6mm in new chamber with light neck tension.
Cheers
RB

[DaveMc]

Thanks RB,

I agree - it is a low chance. I have only had it happen once too (also in 6mm) and luckily not on th line but in load development.
Cheers

[RAVEN]

Yes my experience exactly
I remember KelvinB pulling a bullet at the VRA Queens in 06 he had the chamber tickled up by Giles for the event.

[LarryB]

Hello Alan,
Thanks for the kind words. No need to repay me I was using Norma 6.5-284's necked up. A very light load of H-4350. Jumped about 0.015". Held VERY good elevation. I was more please with the rifles performance in Ireland than in Raton. In Raton I used it at 300, 500 and 600 yd and tried my new Mag for the first time at 900 & 1k. I took Shehane to Ireland with same ammo and used it at 800, 900 and 1k in some extremely bad conditions. Even the coaches were impressed I think.

You are right about why do we bother fire forming any brass. I hope to do some comparison testing if I get time. Finished Ireland with 610 rounds down the tube and the SoA with 850. Now have 1193 on it and need to confirm accuracy. I had to shoot fired formed cases during FC nationals and it didn't seem to be up to par but I used the same powder charge which gave same velocity. The extra capacity of the Shehane can be used to give you more velocity but I'll take one hole groups over an extra 100-200 fps most any day. There are those days/conditions when velocity becomes more critical however.
Till Raton,
Larry

[John T]

Hello all.

Bryan Litz has advised that the 180HYB is not a finicky bullet and there should be no problem loading it. Seat is a jump of 0.015 to 0.060. If using H4831 (AR2213SC), load 54.0 to 56.0.

John T.
4-11-11.

[AlanF]

Hello all.

Bryan Litz has advised that the 180HYB is not a finicky bullet and there should be no problem loading it. Seat is a jump of 0.015 to 0.060. If using H4831 (AR2213SC), load 54.0 to 56.0.

John T.
4-11-11.

Thanks for passing that on John. Hmm that's a very light load. Even with jammed 180 VLDs (which should give slightly better velocity than 180 HYB jumped), and in a 32" barrel, I get about 2835fps with 56.8gn of AR2213SC. If I dropped to Bryan's suggested maximum of 56.0, velocity would likely be barely 2800. His minimum of 54.0 gn could be in the 2600s! Maybe the extra capacity of my Shehane needs a little bit more powder than he says. But I can get 2950 using about 59gn with no extraction problems, but its hard on primer pockets, so will only use that rarely.

Alan

[John T]

Hello Larry.

Thank you for your contributions to this topic. I am sure it will take on more importance as we wind up to Raton.

Interesting that you chose Norma brass over Lapua, RWS and the full size Winchester; and H4350 over H4831.

Even more interesting is your use of unfired casses in major competition! Many years ago when I shot 300M, I was told that a case will never be better than when it is first fired.

I may have missed something, but what is your chamber, 284WIN or 284SHEHANE or do you use both; with unfired brass and the same light load in BOTH?

BTW, I am sure Alan's comments about Emil and the US Team were toung-in-cheek. We would be chuffed if your team see us as a threat.

Regards,
John T.
4-11-11

[Southcape]

Well we would be seen as more of a threat if we were at Raton, rather than standing in AU telling eveyone how good we are down here.

Don't jump people. It was said tongue in cheek.

[John T]

Alan,

this advice is for the 284WIN. I do not doubt that the Shehane will need more powder.

My Shehane reamer remains unused after about 2 years. Cam and others may recall my questioning of the efficacy of the Shehane over the Win.

I should have mentioned that throat length takes on more significance if the bullet is seated with a jump.

With jump, accurate bullet alignment relies on maximum neck contact with good neck tension.

Assuming there is a maximum jump (Litz 0.060), if the throat is more than the maximum, neck contact will decrease, neck tension will need to increase and accuracy is downhill.

Be specific with your armour.

No one knows every thing.

Regards,
John T.
4-11-11

[LarryB]

Hello John,
I used Norma brass because my team is Team Berger/Norma. I didn't have much time to work up a load before shipping ammo to Ireland and H4350 seemed to group better in my very limited testing.

I have in the past used new brass in major matches including FCWC's. If it works I don't worry about it. The chamber I am using is a Shehane. The throat is such that the boatail/body junction of the bullet is just above the donut point of the case neck. And right or wrong, yes I used the same load in both new and fire formed brass. Have I told you I am lazy?

BTW, during the SoA I fired 180 shots before cleaning the barrel. The last 12 shots at 600 yd were all X's(3" dia)...100-12x thirteenth was a low ten and I cleaned the barrel a little. No copper. Love those Bartlein barrels. First time I ever shot that many without cleaning.

I know Alan's comments were tongue-in-cheek as were mine. However, I well remember the 2002 OZ team that gave us a run for our money. I would never count you guys out.
Best Regards,
Larry