223 Build - what barrel length??

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:59 pm

Hi guys,

I have finally decided to bite the bullet and build a dedicated f class rifle. I have chosen a 223 as the Moe range is limited to 700y an i will rarely shoot anywhere, when i do i can use one of my other rifles or learn to read the wind better.

My current 223 is a winchester with a 28" medium palma 8 twist pacnor barrel in a HS precision verticle grip stock. I can get 2900fps out of it but have read of people getting closer to 3000.

If this is the case what barrel length do think is ideal?

I have put my name down for some JLK's to do some testing when they get here.

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:21 pm

Seddo, I use a 30" med palma in 7.7T in 223R for 2970fps with 80gr Amax projectiles. I cant really see a problem with your 28" barrel except for 1000yds and you say your not going to shoot it.

The new projectiles next year might like a faster twist rate than your 8T but you may find it works ok, just need to test a few of the forbidden bullets to see how it goes.

Ian

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:06 pm

Ian,

Thats a great speed!! Care to tell me your load? I am using 2208 and ADI brass in a wylde chamber.

I will still use the winchester but I want the new rifle to have a Stiller Tac30 Single Shot action and Lilja barrel as i import them.

I will go for a 7 twist and see how it goes. I was hoping for a 30" No 8 fluted but i am waiting for stiller to get back to me, just in case its too heavy.

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:24 pm

Seddo, I'm using 25.2gr of 2208 with CCI 450 (magnum) primers in Lapua brass with a custom chamber for the 80gr Amax. I'm sure I have the reamer diagram somewhere on my PC but cant remember the throat length I had cut.

The 7T barrel with a Stiller action should be a really nice combo, give some feedback on how it performs once you have it up and running!

Ian

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:44 pm

Most of the 223 shooters here use 8 twist 30 inch kriegers from SARA. Profile depends on their action, stock and scope weight but it's usually Palma, heavy Palma or even a max heavy varmint. Running 80gr SMK's with around 25.4gr of 2208 in lapua cases and cci 450 primers. Take a look at the adi brass too it's supposed to be very good but work up loads as you would normally.

I reckon once the new bullets come in the 223 will really take off after what locally has been a big lull.

Malcolm Hill · Post by **Malcolm Hill** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:02 pm

Seddo
The 223 will work well with either a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 twist although I have found the faster twist gives less vertical variation at long range(900/1000 yds). Loads with around 25 gns 2208 in a 30 inch barrel give around 2950 fps or slightly better and I don't believe there is much benefit going to a longer throated chamber for the Amax's as I have tried both. You may have to do some research on the Lilja barrels though as I think they only run two grooves which could likely alter velocities appreciably. Even though you are only shooting to 700 yards you still need the velocity to be up there to compete with the 308 on wind drift. My opinion is that the 7.7 twist is probably ideal as I have found that they are more forgiving of different loads and projectiles and easier to get tight groups out of than the 7 twist barrels.
Regards Malcolm.

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Malcolm,

There are 3 and 6 groove in 7 twist.

.224 (.22) 7" 3-G 6-G, 8" 3-G 4-G 6-G,

Malcolm Hill · Post by **Malcolm Hill** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:15 am

Seddo
Looked on the Lilja website to check things out and if I were only shooting to 700 yards would probably go with the 8 twist in 4 groove at 30 inches. The only advantage a 7 twist would give at 700 yards is the fact that you could possibly use 90 gn bullets if they ever got approved. As far as 4 groove vs 6 groove is concerned I have had excellent results with either but I haven't tried anything with less than 4 grooves.
Regards Malcolm.

fclass556 · Post by **fclass556** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:33 pm

Seddo,
Having been fortunate enough to use and test many variations of 223 or 5.56 the trick is to keep it simple. The 224 proj's in particular the 80gn variety are very forgiving and can be made to shoot very easily. Remingtons in the past have been my main choice of action however I did discover that a 26" heavy or No7 profile 1/8 twist barrel is more than sufficient out to 900 metres or just under the 1000 yards. Benchrest shooters have for decades found accuracy in 'short stiff' barrels. The same can be applied to our discipline. VLD projectiles or anything with a secant ogive do not like jump. It's been my experience seating them 10.000 into the lands is a sweet spot. 25.2gns of 2208 or Varget will burn completely in you 26" barrel. Anything longer was just extra bullet travel for what I found was no extra gain. BR4 primers work well but in Rem's you should have the firing pin hole bushed for a whole host of reasons. With respect to projectiles you cant go past the Berger 80gn VLD's however I am just about to start testing with the Berger 80.5 palma which are claimed to have a higher BC. JLK's are on par with the Bergers and manufacturing consistancy is very good. AMax bullets are a cost effective option in the VLD market however batch lots can vary on occasion as does any mass produced bullet. I'm in the process of working up 2 newly acquired Stolle Panda FClass actions in yes, .223 with Maddco 26" barrels in McMillan MBR stocks. My load will begin at 25.2 of 2208 and being a custom action work up a stiffer load from there. You can look at 1/7's but you may find you end up over spinning the bullets and would only look at that rate for 90 gns proj's.
How's that for a short answer.
Cheers Andy

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:23 am

Thanks for the info andy. I know what you mean about the firing pin holes on remys. You should see the primers that come out of my LTR, they come up around the firing pin but the sides of the primers are not flat and show no signs of pressure.

I will order a 27" no8 and see how I go, it costs the same as a 26" and I can always cut it down later.

I was going to order the McMillan f class stock. How does that compare to the MBR?

fclass556 · Post by **fclass556** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:08 pm

Good choice matey. As you say also gives you the option to shorten later if you want but definitely long enough for you purpose. I said in an earlier post the 'keep it simple' theory. A standard MBR Tooley from McMillan is 'simple' and ideal for what you want to do. Rigid, angle of the pistol grip or neck of stock is just right for prone shooting, and the slight angle down to the rear again is correct for rear bag shooting. No need for adjustable cheek pieces just get your length of pull measured right. The FClass McMillan stock is fancy but un necessary. Also shooting prone from a some mounds on a rest you may find you have to wind the rest very high in order to get elevation and remove the rifle stop to prevent touching the barrel. I know they are just little things but its all the little things that complicate the big picture. Lets know how you get on with the 27"er and what loads you run.
Cheers matey. Andy

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:28 pm

never forget the introduction of ftr.
in this discipline you can use 90 gn bullets, and a twist for 90 gn won't hurt an 80 gn.
rifle wt might effect profile, but long is good.
same gun can be used in fstd with 80s
in britain the 223 has been giving good results out to 1200 yd with 90 grainers. in fact it has less wind deflection than almost anything a 308 can do.
just some thoughts,
keep safe,
bruce.

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:34 am

Never thought of that, I will order a 7 & 8 twist barrel then. Might as well cover my bases!

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:01 pm

seddo,
the 7 will do both.
bruce.

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:24 pm

bruce moulds wrote:never forget the introduction of ftr.
in this discipline you can use 90 gn bullets, and a twist for 90 gn won't hurt an 80 gn.
rifle wt might effect profile, but long is good.
same gun can be used in fstd with 80s
in britain the 223 has been giving good results out to 1200 yd with 90 grainers. in fact it has less wind deflection than almost anything a 308 can do.
just some thoughts,
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce, you raise an interesting topic and its one I experimented with some time back. I had a reamer made to suit the 90gr Berger Vld in the Lapua 223R case and did some testing in a 8T barrel I had at the time. I exchanged info with people in the USA and GB about its development.

Long story short was the case did not have enough capacity to hold sufficient powder to launch the 90gr at more than 2800fps (from memory) so I shelved the project. Now with RL 17 available maybe a compressed load could get them lauched at competitive (with 308W) velocities and produce a winning combo of less wind drift and recoil?

Shooting heavy 308W bullets in light F T/R rigs generates lots of recoil that needs to be managed but the 90gr Vlds would eliminate this problem totally. I might look at this idea again if a barrel becomes available. I also have a 223R AI reamer with throat dimension to shoot 90gr Vlds but unfortunately it cant be used for F T/R.

Ian