Here is a pic. of my F-Class gun! Again it's in .284win. and yes it's left handed! Barnard action.
Later, Frank
Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
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Frank Green
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Frank Green
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm
- Has thanked: 131 times
- Been thanked: 317 times
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Frank Green
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Brad Y wrote:Great to see another lefty! Welcome to the forum Frank, and thanks for your information on your Bartlein Barrels. I look forward to the day I get the opportunity to screw one onto my FO rifle.
Brad Y, Us lefty's have to stick together! The rest of the world is against us! I won't convert!
Later, Frank
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bolster55
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
Hi All
is this thread still in progress or is it dead?
The reason I ask is that I have a bartlein barrel that went to the gunsmith to be fitted to a different action. The gunsmith rang me and said that barrel is cactus!
I drive over and inspected the barrel, and yes it looks, exactly like the pics earlier except...... the grooves (vines)are not on the lands but in the grooves!
He chambered a barrel, of same manufacture, for another action that has some of the grooves in the barrel and it has not fired a shot!
The gunsmith has chambered some 8-10 barrels for me of different make and not one of them has this "fault"?
All this happened yesterday.
A member at our club has a borescope with photographic ability, it will come to good use.
Next I will get tests done on the barrel material, being in that field you have contacts, and a little knowhow!
is this thread still in progress or is it dead?
The reason I ask is that I have a bartlein barrel that went to the gunsmith to be fitted to a different action. The gunsmith rang me and said that barrel is cactus!
I drive over and inspected the barrel, and yes it looks, exactly like the pics earlier except...... the grooves (vines)are not on the lands but in the grooves!
He chambered a barrel, of same manufacture, for another action that has some of the grooves in the barrel and it has not fired a shot!
The gunsmith has chambered some 8-10 barrels for me of different make and not one of them has this "fault"?
All this happened yesterday.
A member at our club has a borescope with photographic ability, it will come to good use.
Next I will get tests done on the barrel material, being in that field you have contacts, and a little knowhow!
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pjifl
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
There was other material on this barrel which seems to have disapeared.
Since I (and DaveMc) took sections and pictures and wrote a report on it, if you have never seen this material, perhaps you would like to download it at
https://sites.google.com/site/pjshootin ... rel-damage
This may or may not be relevant to the question by Bolster55.
I may take another look at a remaining section that I have and see if there is any damage in the grooves.
Finally - the eye can play tricks resulting in an illusion and make the lands look like grooves with some types of lighting.
Peter Smith.
Since I (and DaveMc) took sections and pictures and wrote a report on it, if you have never seen this material, perhaps you would like to download it at
https://sites.google.com/site/pjshootin ... rel-damage
This may or may not be relevant to the question by Bolster55.
I may take another look at a remaining section that I have and see if there is any damage in the grooves.
Finally - the eye can play tricks resulting in an illusion and make the lands look like grooves with some types of lighting.
Peter Smith.
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bolster55
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
Issues,
I do not use bronze brushes.
I use nylon at infrequent occasions.
I use Bore Tech Eliminator.
I use Iosso paste at about 200 to 300 round intervals.
My Bartlein has fired 1077 rounds.
The barrel was cleaned after each weekly shoot or daily at a prize meet.
I guarantee that the cleaning rods are free rotating and are carbon fibre.
I do not use steel jags.
I use an Acetyl bore guide.
Visually I would say that the damage is caused by a brush, nylon could do that, but why this make of barrel and not my other barrels?
Why this barrel when predominantly I use jags and patches on all my barrels?
You may be right Peter, I may not be looking at the damage correctly because with my eyes the damage is not on the lands but in the grooves, is that possible or misinterpreted on my behalf?
Regards
I do not use bronze brushes.
I use nylon at infrequent occasions.
I use Bore Tech Eliminator.
I use Iosso paste at about 200 to 300 round intervals.
My Bartlein has fired 1077 rounds.
The barrel was cleaned after each weekly shoot or daily at a prize meet.
I guarantee that the cleaning rods are free rotating and are carbon fibre.
I do not use steel jags.
I use an Acetyl bore guide.
Visually I would say that the damage is caused by a brush, nylon could do that, but why this make of barrel and not my other barrels?
Why this barrel when predominantly I use jags and patches on all my barrels?
You may be right Peter, I may not be looking at the damage correctly because with my eyes the damage is not on the lands but in the grooves, is that possible or misinterpreted on my behalf?
Regards
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Frank Green
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
I'd like to see some pictures if you could please. Get a hold of me please.
No brush period should be used with any of the paste cleaners. Even a nylon brush. Mark who works here (started a little over a year ago) is a benchrest shooter primarily. He currently holds 2 or 3 world records. Before he worked here he had used a nylon brush and Iosso. He said it was probably the best barrel he ever had and said he wrecked it in one day!!!!!!!!!!!! It shot good after that one cleaning but it was never the same. When we bore scoped the barrel the scratches are faint but the marks had already started on the lands.
I had one customer last year wreck 3 different barrels. A 6mm and 6.5mm. He cleaned all of them with Witch's Brew and a nylon brush. He argued with me (in a nice way) that the Witch's Brew is in liquid form and not as aggressive as the paste. I said then why are the gouges showing up? I kept one of the barrels for show and tell and it's in my office. It's a 6.5mm in .260 Improved. Has 110 rounds on it! The gouges are already starting to show on the lands!
No paste cleaners and any brush (nylon or bronze) should be used in my opinion.
I use Remington 40x bore cleaner once in a while but don't use it with a brush. Just with a patch on the end of the rod.
Also using a paste cleaner you are basically lapping the bore every time you use it. You can make the bore to smooth and it will lead to a copper fouling situation which will lead to accuracy problems as well. Usually once this starts you cannot save the barrel.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
No brush period should be used with any of the paste cleaners. Even a nylon brush. Mark who works here (started a little over a year ago) is a benchrest shooter primarily. He currently holds 2 or 3 world records. Before he worked here he had used a nylon brush and Iosso. He said it was probably the best barrel he ever had and said he wrecked it in one day!!!!!!!!!!!! It shot good after that one cleaning but it was never the same. When we bore scoped the barrel the scratches are faint but the marks had already started on the lands.
I had one customer last year wreck 3 different barrels. A 6mm and 6.5mm. He cleaned all of them with Witch's Brew and a nylon brush. He argued with me (in a nice way) that the Witch's Brew is in liquid form and not as aggressive as the paste. I said then why are the gouges showing up? I kept one of the barrels for show and tell and it's in my office. It's a 6.5mm in .260 Improved. Has 110 rounds on it! The gouges are already starting to show on the lands!
No paste cleaners and any brush (nylon or bronze) should be used in my opinion.
I use Remington 40x bore cleaner once in a while but don't use it with a brush. Just with a patch on the end of the rod.
Also using a paste cleaner you are basically lapping the bore every time you use it. You can make the bore to smooth and it will lead to a copper fouling situation which will lead to accuracy problems as well. Usually once this starts you cannot save the barrel.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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ShaneG
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
Frank, what is your opinion on a strip of patch material wrapped around the nylon brush?
To apply say KG2 to remove carbon?
Thanks in advance
Shane
To apply say KG2 to remove carbon?
Thanks in advance
Shane
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Frank Green
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
ShaneG wrote:Frank, what is your opinion on a strip of patch material wrapped around the nylon brush?
To apply say KG2 to remove carbon?
Thanks in advance
Shane
ShaneG, I don't know how to word it the best. I guess I would be o.k. with it but the concern is how tight is the patch, size of the brush etc...
My concern and where the damage occurs is the paste and the bristles of the brush. The bristles put more force on the paste and works it into the barrel steel/harder on the bore is what I'm getting at.
The lands stick up and become the bore. The bore is the tops of the lands. So the lands are taking the beating/damage more then the grooves do but the grooves can be damaged as well but don't show it as quickly or readily.
I don't think I have a great answer to your question other than to make sure the patch isn't fitting to tight in the bore and that the bristles are not poking thru the patch at all would be the only way I could recommend it at all but again I feel you have to be careful how much of the paste you are using and how often. Again to me your lapping the barrel each time you do it and it can lead to a copper fouling situation and when this starts/happens you normally cannot stop it.
If you have a copper fouling situation going on. From a clean barrel the accuracy problem will start in my opinion at about 12-15 rounds. Some copper in the bore is normal but you don't want it building up/getting real heavy on the tops of the lands. When it builds up real heavy on the tops of the lands that's when the gun will have accuracy problems. Copper in the grooves and the barrel doesn't seem to care at all.
Later, Frank
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bolster55
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
PM sent to Mr. Frank Green. With photos of barrel in question and new unfired barrel with similar "grooves".
Last edited by bolster55 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ShaneG
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
Frank
I usually carry out that type of clean every 2-300 rounds to remove the stubborn carbon build up. Not concerned with copper as in various Bartlein, Krieger and Brux personally I have not had copper issues.
However carbon build up in front of the chamber destroys accuracy if left unchecked.
There have been many threads on removing carbon?!
I use a nylon brush completely covered by patch material with a light application of the KG2.
About 15 passes and the patch material is black - this after normal C4 cleaning.
I have ensured I have a very good rod after the issues discussed some time ago with Tony B barrel.
I constantly check that it is rotating all the time!
Shane
I usually carry out that type of clean every 2-300 rounds to remove the stubborn carbon build up. Not concerned with copper as in various Bartlein, Krieger and Brux personally I have not had copper issues.
However carbon build up in front of the chamber destroys accuracy if left unchecked.
There have been many threads on removing carbon?!
I use a nylon brush completely covered by patch material with a light application of the KG2.
About 15 passes and the patch material is black - this after normal C4 cleaning.
I have ensured I have a very good rod after the issues discussed some time ago with Tony B barrel.
I constantly check that it is rotating all the time!
Shane
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pjifl
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Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
I checked the small piece of Tony's barrel I still have. Some ghost like marks are in the grooves at a similar angle to the axis as the grooves in the lands. But they are very faint and never seem to develop into gouges like the damage to the lands.
I now remember that measurements of the bore diameter showed a huge amount had been taken off the lands. Although there seems far less visual damage in the grooves, their diameter also had been widened substantially. Remeasuring this from the fully milled open piece I have would now be difficult. Somewhere I have a sectioned and face lapped disc which would allow re-measurement but not sure where it is now. Perhaps DaveMc remembers how much diameter had been removed but I remember being staggered at the time.
I occasionally but lightly use JB on a patch perhaps every 200 - 400 shots and concentrate most action just ahead of the throat. This involves reversing the motion of the patch. It would concern me to be reversing any bristles very often, even of nylon. After seeing and handling this piece of barrel I am paranoid now about over-cleaning.
Probably irrelevant, but have you seen what constant rope wear can do to a stainless boat fitting like a bow anchor slide. Undoubtedly, some grit is involved. But so is the case once carbon dislodges from the inside of a barrel.
Peter Smith.
I now remember that measurements of the bore diameter showed a huge amount had been taken off the lands. Although there seems far less visual damage in the grooves, their diameter also had been widened substantially. Remeasuring this from the fully milled open piece I have would now be difficult. Somewhere I have a sectioned and face lapped disc which would allow re-measurement but not sure where it is now. Perhaps DaveMc remembers how much diameter had been removed but I remember being staggered at the time.
I occasionally but lightly use JB on a patch perhaps every 200 - 400 shots and concentrate most action just ahead of the throat. This involves reversing the motion of the patch. It would concern me to be reversing any bristles very often, even of nylon. After seeing and handling this piece of barrel I am paranoid now about over-cleaning.
Probably irrelevant, but have you seen what constant rope wear can do to a stainless boat fitting like a bow anchor slide. Undoubtedly, some grit is involved. But so is the case once carbon dislodges from the inside of a barrel.
Peter Smith.
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