Bronze brushes and Black Residue

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:23 pm

HI All,
Got into a bit of bother with hard powder fouling. The advice around seemed to be Hoppes and Bronze Brushes.
OK, got into that.
However, I'm finding - on all occasions - that the bronze brush passes never end up clean. A following patch always comes out with some black colouring.
Wetting and soaking for a few minutes with Hoppes and the patch comes out clean.
Repeat the bronze brush - with Hoppes or without - and the black is back.
My suspicion is that the black is coming from somewhere other than powder fouling.
Maybe it's stainless steel, bronze, or some etching (or whatever) of the steel binding that hold the bronze bristles.
I don't see where the Hoppes is doing this, as I understand Hoppes is just one of the Hydro Carbons.
Has anyone else experienced this?
Regards
Howard.
is

Post by **AlanF** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:55 pm

You're right. They ALWAYS come out black. And I don't know why either. I suspect its fine particles from the tip[s of the bronze bristles - they do wear quite rapidly.

Alan

BATattack · Post by **BATattack** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:29 pm

AlanF wrote::lol:

You're right. They ALWAYS come out black. And I don't know why either. I suspect its fine particles from the tip[s of the bronze bristles - they do wear quite rapidly.

Alan

+1 on that

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:17 am

Test the theory on the outside of barrel ( or new barrel blank)
Please post your findings. It is an interesting topic

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:52 am

Maybe the hoppes and brush combo isnt removing all the carbon. Just a small amount each time, enough to make a patch black and thats it...

If you want hoppes to work, put in your barrel when its warm- 3-4 really soggy wet patches back and forth. Then leave your barrel for 2 days.

Otherwise, put it in your barrel when its warm, go home then clean it with JB or iosso paste on a stiff nylon brush. Its the only thing I have found that removes glazed on carbon fouling in a bore. Depending on the cartridge being used, you might need it every 60-100 shots.

The other thing I have found (sadly) is that once a barrel is let glaze over to the point where things become bad, then is scrubbed clean, is that they tend to copper foul more. Not sure why this is but it has happened to a 6.5mm maddco and a 7mm krieger 5r as well. My 6mm krieger Ive been maticulously keeping free of carbon by cleaning when the barrel is warm and before the carbon has a chance to 'set' So far its not needed an abrasive clean after 300 rounds and shot a 60.5 yesterday and a 60.9 the previous weekend.

KHGS · Post by **KHGS** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:04 am

Brad Y wrote:Maybe the hoppes and brush combo isnt removing all the carbon. Just a small amount each time, enough to make a patch black and thats it...

If you want hoppes to work, put in your barrel when its warm- 3-4 really soggy wet patches back and forth. Then leave your barrel for 2 days.

Otherwise, put it in your barrel when its warm, go home then clean it with JB or iosso paste on a stiff nylon brush. Its the only thing I have found that removes glazed on carbon fouling in a bore. Depending on the cartridge being used, you might need it every 60-100 shots.

The other thing I have found (sadly) is that once a barrel is let glaze over to the point where things become bad, then is scrubbed clean, is that they tend to copper foul more. Not sure why this is but it has happened to a 6.5mm maddco and a 7mm krieger 5r as well. My 6mm krieger Ive been maticulously keeping free of carbon by cleaning when the barrel is warm and before the carbon has a chance to 'set' So far its not needed an abrasive clean after 300 rounds and shot a 60.5 yesterday and a 60.9 the previous weekend.

If the carbon is allowed to build & stay in the barrel fine "etching" can take place under the carbon, then when the carbon is removed the barrel will tend to copper foul a little more. Fine abrasives tend to polish this etching & reduce ongoing copper fouling. Moly or tungsten disulphide coated bullets prevent the carbon sticking to the bore & cleaning the carbon out is then effortless.
Keith H.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:14 am

Exactly what I found as well keith. Im keeping onto it with iosso/jb at the moment, as moly coating is another process that I tried and it works but adds to more things to do. A rechamber has helped a bit and now I just keep on top of the copper every couple of ranges.

Back to the original topic, if its firmly glazed up, that barrel wont get clean by any other method aside from an abrasive paste. Most solvents wont touch it. Maybe GM TEC or the carbon solvent from KG systems will help a bit better than most, but still a scrub with JB would be better and quicker at getting it back to steel again.

KHGS · Post by **KHGS** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:09 pm

Brad Y wrote:Exactly what I found as well keith. Im keeping onto it with iosso/jb at the moment, as moly coating is another process that I tried and it works but adds to more things to do. A rechamber has helped a bit and now I just keep on top of the copper every couple of ranges.

Back to the original topic, if its firmly glazed up, that barrel wont get clean by any other method aside from an abrasive paste. Most solvents wont touch it. Maybe GM TEC or the carbon solvent from KG systems will help a bit better than most, but still a scrub with JB would be better and quicker at getting it back to steel again.

One of the burn retardants uses in varying amounts in smokeless powders is calcium carbonate, once this is baked onto the bore, solvents barely make a dent in it as they cannot penetrate the "calcium carbonate glaze" which is similar to the glaze used on pottery. Once burned onto the bore & hardened abrasives used in a hot barrel is the best way to remove it. The bore may be heated by pouring a litre of boiling water through it.
Keith H.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:11 am

My observations are similar but I have drawn a different conclusion so I would like to see some elimination testing done on this to see which is the right conclusion (and that is easily done with new (unshot) barrel vs old)

My observations are the same : Cleaning with a bronze brush and then patching (with Hoppes or any other carbon remover) results in ongoing (frustrating) black patching.

BUT - it gradually gets lighter and lighter and if you look through the borescope you will notice you quickly remove the carbon for a shiny bore 4-10 inches in front of chamber through to muzzle. The remaining carbon is hard baked as mentioned by Keith etc above.

MY CONCLUSIONS (Which may well be wrong) Ongoing scrubbing (Bronze Brush) and patching will gradually wear away at this layer and I have gone through the process of taking this back to bare metal with Carbon removers and bronze brushes and patches - It takes a long time and the patches do get weaker and weaker.....

There are no "carbon solvents" just chemicals that act as surfactants to help you break up and remove the hard carbon. Bronze brushes help this process by scratching the carbon and allowing surfactant in to break it up. (Abrasives abrade it away.). Nylon brushes and straight patching remove very little and only get the bore clean to metal in front of the hard baked on area. They do very little to the harder carbon area. Sure the patches come out clean after a little while but does this mean you are clean ??? Sorry but I think you have only removed the easy stuff....

I went through a time where I went back to nylon brushes and every few hundred rounds it was obvious that the barrels needed a "pasting" in the throat area. I have since gone back to the tried and true method of a few strokes of hoppes on a bronze brush immediately after shooting (whilst warm. This will not get barrel carbon down to bare metal but it does reduce the need for abrasive pastes (only do it every 4-500 rounds now).

Hot is better in all methods.......

So lets take a look further into it............................ who knows???. :shock:

Tim L · Post by **Tim L** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:58 am

A bit of newbie input here. My lesson came from NQRA queens. During campfire discussions, my cleaning regime was found to be flawed. My barrel (6.5x284)had never seen a bronze brush. The conclusion was that my problems stemmed from a carbon constriction and I was advised to polish the bore. I borrowed some Iosso, gave it some elbow grease and saw a marked improvement.
I spent Queens running a bronze brush through the barrel after every string and a couple of strokes with Iosso every night followed by a hot water rinse. I use Boretech, but after the Iosso and water rinse, any subsequent patches were clean.
When I got home I shot another 2 strings before taking the barrel off to fit the 308. A bore scope in the 6.5 shows a "new" barrel. No flame cracking, no erosion, just like new! This is a1500 round 6.5x284 (all be it I was only pushing them at 2850). I guess the carbon was protecting it, as well as swaging my projectiles.
I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that, it kind of runs along Dave's line really.
Does anyone ultrasonic their barrel? It cleans cylinder heads up nicely.

DenisA · Post by **DenisA** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:14 pm

In respect to heating a barrel before a clean at home, Keith has already suggested pouring hot water down the barrel, has anyone used a heat gun such as a paint stripping gun to warm a barrel?

I guess you could just blow it straight into the action without a wet mess.

Is soaking the carbon with hot water rather than simply heating it a means of softening the carbon a little?

Has anyone tried using some of the late carbon cleaners designed for common rail turbo diesel inlet manifolds that are so common to carbon foul?

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:18 pm

Denis - I am not sure of the action that helps with softening the carbon but I did read on the ultrasonic cleaning process that a lot of the commercial ultrasonic surfactants work best in a specific temperature range - mostly at 70-80 deg C. Hot water may well be softening the carbon but I would bet the temp also helps activate the cleaning compounds. 100 degree hot water would bring barrel steel to this temp almost perfectly and it holds there for a long time.. Higher temps are not necessarily better. Controlled temp hot air gun may do the same???? Only one way to find out...

One experiment to try at home is try wiping the carbon off the necks of your brass immediately after firing - then compare to leaving it cool. The first wipes off with fingers. the second requires some effort.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:29 pm

OK - well I just ran some Hoppes on bronze brush through a New barrel blank and it did come out quite black - so there you go??? Unless there was carbon or lead from the lap in there it may say something...??

KHGS · Post by **KHGS** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:57 pm

DaveMc wrote:OK - well I just ran some Hoppes on bronze brush through a New barrel blank and it did come out quite black - so there you go??? Unless there was carbon or lead from the lap in there it may say something...??

All new barrels have crap in them from the lapping process, I have never seen a "clean" new barrel blank yet. Maddco's come close though. However this is not to say that solvent & bronze brushes do not react with the bore & produce a black residue. I do not get any lingering black on my patches after bronze brushing with Nulon intake cleaner, this stuff smells like a strong Shooters Choice bore solvent & does remove copper as quick as Butch's Bore Shine & pretty dam good on carbon where molly is used. I use nothing else in my molly treated barrels & I give them a "lick" with Iosso when they need it, about 150 rounds.
Keith H.

johnk · Post by **johnk** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:21 pm

Should talk to you more often, Keith. As I recall, last time we spoke you were using Bore Bright & certainly not Nulon.