Bronze brushes and Black Residue

[Brad Y]

Nulon is the stuff in the black can isnt it Keith? I tried it once and yes it does work on copper. Came out a purple colour from memory? I think its probably very similar chemically to shooters choice, GM TEC, Subaru upper engine cleaner and the current one Im trying, Quicksilver (Mercury Outboard) Powertune. All will get you high as a kite if your not careful

[BATattack]

Copper carbonate is also black. They make it by dissolving copper in ammonia,
Boiling the liquor off before crystallizing and drying the slurry.

[KHGS]

Nulon is the stuff in the black can isnt it Keith? I tried it once and yes it does work on copper. Came out a purple colour from memory? I think its probably very similar chemically to shooters choice, GM TEC, Subaru upper engine cleaner and the current one Im trying, Quicksilver (Mercury Outboard) Powertune. All will get you high as a kite if your not careful

That is the one, stronger than Quicksilver Powertune which I used for several years prior to the Nulon product.
Keith H.

[Tim N]

I have been trying the subaru cleaner and it must remove a bit of crud as I have to use a smaller patch when cleaning it out or risk jamming the bigger one I normally use with hoppes and a brush.
I have made use of the nozzle and spray it directly into the bore, then let it soak.

[DaveMc]

I have tried the Subaru upper engine cleaner, Quicksilver (Not Nulon admittedly), Slip carbon killer 2000, KG, Butches bore shine, Boretech carbon remover, Hoppes, XIT carbon etc etc etc. NONE I have tried remove this hard layer of carbon in the first few inches without elbow grease and a bronze brush. Best process so far was a few strokes of bronze brush then a wet patch "short scrubbed" in throat area and best done warm daily. The abrasives can also be concentrated here (but at what cost?)

I had assumed Hoppes was doing a better job because it came out blacker - I may have assumed wrong.....and maybe all these are much for muchness???? (BUT which are nicer to use?? - some of those upper engine cleaners are NASTY - the modern ones such as aeronautical XIT and carbon killer 2000, KG, Boretech are much nicer and safer.

A couple of weeks ago I ordered an ultrasonic transducer and controller and intend to make a vertical tank with vibrating diaphragm in bottom (directed into bore) as a trial. A couple of the Mackay guys have reported great success with the ultrasound.

I am hoping Ultrasound will replace the "JB/Iosso/KGpaste" process every few hundred rounds..????

[Nathan P]

I have been pretty happy with the bore tech carbon remover, I just follow the directions on the bottle 2-3 wet patches followed by a scrub with a stuff nylon brush then a couple more wet patches an let it sit for a bit before dry patching while the barrel is still warm, patches come out pretty clean after then it's onto attacking the copper

[DaveMc]

Nathan - what we are saying is nyon brushes and these products don't get to the hard carbon in the throat area. You think it is clean but it isn't. This builds up and eventually you need to paste the throat area or you end up with a "swaged" bullet effect by constriction (and not in shape of lands.) You think you are clean because the patches come out clean but really you are just not removing any more. - You are as clean as you are going to get it with that product and that brush.

[Brad Y]

Dave- the blue iosso brand nylon brushes are stiffer and harder than some of the run of the mill bronze brushes around! I cant bend the bristles on them where the bronze ones on some brushes just kink over! When we use nylon brushes we will short scrub them back and forth in the bore- something I would never do with a bronze brush as the bristles could break off and get stuck in the corner of a groove. Bullet over piece of metal in bore= nasty!

I will admit some nylon brushes are good for nothing but cleaning soot out of case mouths and thats about it. Maybe a bronze brush would be good as well.

A borescope has shown me that by pushing a couple of patches of hoppes (mmm love that warm hoppes smell) immediately after shooting and left soak an hour or two, patching out then working with the stiff iosso nylon brush and quicksilver powertune that its indeed getting alot of carbon out. The key being to get the hoppes in so it can soften it all up while its warm. After this weekend I will do that treatment and patch out until clear, then clean my brushes and do it again to see if there is still black coming out of the barrel. But the borescope shows very little black in the barrel, with only abrasives getting it back to a full shine. The other thing about this method is I find the first sighter isnt as far out of the group as when you clean back to bare steel with abrasives.

The abrasive clean is still required I feel as it smooths out the throat and will get any of the carbon out that the chemicals and brushes dont get. Do an abrasive clean every 80 or so rounds to make sure things are good, then go ahead with the chemical cleans every 24-36 rounds.

[AlanF]

I can't see how abrasives can be avoided in the throat area once fire cracking takes hold, unless the fire cracking is just the carbon layer, which I don't believe is always the case. And cleaning this area thoroughly with a solvent may even accelerate fire cracking. I believe that an abrasive will tend to remove the high spots of the cracking without etching out the carbon in the cracks (and exposing them to further heat damage). I also believe that the condition of the throat area is of less importance for accuracy than the other 80% of the barrel, particularly the crown. So when I use a paste, the tight patch with the abrasive never goes more than about 6" past the throat. Following that, loose patches and brushes soaked with metho or solvent can be pushed right through to flush out the abrasive residue.

[DaveMc]

Brad - Stiff does not mean hard and I don't think the nylon does much to this hard layer at all unless not allowed to harden (And I am only talking about the first few inches here)

Yes - Hoppes on Bronze brush when hot does - but once again to get rid of it completely takes a lot of work or heavy abrasive pasting. You will get it down (so looks OK) but takes a LOT to remove it and I agree with Alan - basically a pasting is inevitable if you want to get rid of it completely or smooth firecracking.

I also partly agree with Alan that it is not as critical a part of the barrel - Until it builds up and "swages" the bullet smaller than the remaining barrel - then it is like a bad crown - this is when accuracy starts to fail. But I wonder how much this section changes the pressure/burn curve. And how much this affects velocity spreads etc. I certainly don't like the thought of jamming a projectile through a build up of carbon and then the bore opening up or not a good match for the barrel/grooves/lands for the remainder? I get the feeling it is more important than we think.

The "firecracking" is interesting to observe - certainly scrubbing out the carbon (paste or brush) greatly reduces its appearance and regular cleaning seems to delay the onset??(not 100% sure on this)?? It has been proposed on many occasions recently that the thick hard carbon layer could be "pulling" or peening the hot steel in throat - rather than helping protect - it could be possibly adding to the condition???

A small amount of carbon is good but too much ......??????

[KHGS]

A small amount of carbon is good but too much ......??????[/quote]

No carbon is good, it builds on itself very rapidly. Alan is fairly spot on with what he says above. Once firecracking is evident, abrasives if used correctly will prolong barrel life. The key to carbon control is to not let it build, if it does it is very detrimental to accuracy & difficult to remove. The vigorous cleaning required to remove it when it builds to a level that affects accuracy does much more damage to the bore than regular cleaning to keep it out. I hate carbon!!!!
Keith H.

[Brad Y]

It would be interesting to take two barrels, same caliber, same number of rounds with similar loads and weigh each one and borescope it. Then try the hoppes with bronze brush that is only going one way through the bore vs the engine cleaners and a stiff nylon brush short scrubbed in the throat and see what a set timeframe of brushing and wet patches does in terms of carbon removal. I dont have a set of scales accurate enough to be able to measure the amount of carbon lost but a visibility check could be done I guess.

One thing I will add, Im keen to remove the engine cleaner out of my cleaning regime purely from a safety point of view. Its not nice stuff thats for sure. More than happy to replace it with hoppes, though I feel it works better after being left in the bore for a while to really soak in. Been meaning to try that KG stuff for a while its supposed to be magic in a bottle. But like everything solvents aint solvents and surfactants aint surfactants...

[aaronraad]

This is the bore of my combo Brno ZH304 7x57R bore, notice the groove width (that you can drive a truck through) compared the bore width (you can ice skate with). Essentially plenty of room for patching and cleaning. Problem is the Highland factory ammo (<20 rounds) fouls like it's loaded with black powder. So after patching with Hoppes No.9 repeatedly and then bronze brushing with Hoppes No.9 still getting very black patches. So out comes the carby cleaner.

This is the cheap stuff about $7/can I use to clean jackets with from Repco. The bore literally runs black for the first few seconds when squirting directly down the bore. Patching out shows little fouling remaining. I patch out with Hoppes No.9 before oiling with Sweets for storage. Rifle still holds 1.5" 3-shot groups at 100y with the Highland 139gr's and that's all vertical only a bullet width in horizontal.

Brad

If you're looking for a 'friendlier' solvent cleaner try the CRC Brakleen Non-Chlorinated. The old tri or tetrachlorethelyne (not typically added to anything anymore) did have a habit of stripping more than your sinuses. My grandfather was an old school auto-mechanic and served in the AIF 2nd/14th mortor platoon, who's father was blacksmith from the Downs. The only three things he warned me about in life. One was women. Two was don't trust a Fuzzy-Wuzzy. The third was carby cleaner or anything that contained C2Cl4 pointing at the label on the can. He actually made an effort to point it away from himself when spraying an coving him mouth with the other hand. Ahh those were the days spent working in his shed.

[Tim L]

From a limited exposure to fuel and lube technology, it's maybe worth mentioning that none of the products being discussed here are actually designed to do anything to the carbon itself. The automotive industry and fuel manufacturers have thrown $billions at this problem, and if they can't dissolve carbon, no-one can!
All these products are actually designed to attack the suspected bonding agents which form between the carbon and between the carbon and parent metal (in this case the barrel).
The warning I would put out, is that while these products would be safe on iron, steel and aluminium, (even rubber and plastic), there aren't too many stainless steel engines floating around and most of these products will make a mess of any chrome they are spilt on.
It's just a thought,

[Brad Y]

Aaron

Ive tried throttle body cleaners, carby cleaners etc and found them no good compared to these sorts of cleaners. The subaru one your acutally supposed to spray into a running engine til it stalls then once its soaked in for a bit start the engine and rev it like crazy to burn it all out. Those carby cleaners I have found ok for soft soot, but not as good as the upper engine/top engine cleaners.

Just today Ive purchased a bottle of MPro7 as its rated by a few forums as good on carbon. Its also non carcinogenic, which is suddenly a priority more than ever after a midday call from my father saying his oncologist is suspending treatment as his tumours are not responding to all the medications they have tried.

I also purchased a bronze brush, I figure a brush with it straight after shooting then some wet patches of solvent will definitely remove carbon, how well compared to my current method- a friends hawkeye will tell me I guess.