Reloader 17 Narrow Nodes

[Winston]

Hi Folks,

I while back I asked here if a 308 throwing 230gr Bergers seemed like a viable f-open calibre. The consensus seemed to be that it wouldn't be to shabby, so I went ahead and had a barrel made. For those of you that don't know, I have Cam McEwan's old Hall action.

I've worked up a load using rl17 (45.3gr) and had an encouraging start shooting a pair of 59's on the weekend (though my centre count was low with a total of 3 for both stages). Figuring the load needed some tweaking, I just headed out to the range with some loads at 45.2, 45.3 and 45.4 grains of rl17. The results surprised me. 45.2 had nearly 2 inches of vertical at 200 yards, then only 0.1 of a grain more powder (4 bloody kernels!) up I shoot a 1/4 moa group with very little vertical. 45.4 went ugly again.

This seems to be an extremely narrow node to me and one I probably can't risk using due to temp changes etc. Anyone have any experience or insights they can share to give me a hand?

I've worked up another load using 2209, but it is considerably slower and I have a mountain of rl17 on hand.

This setup has me fine tuning my technique as the recoil is considerably higher than my previous f-open setups, so I can't rule out the nut behind the butt being a factor, but who knows.

Has anyone had good results using rl17 in any calibre?

Cheers Gents,

Alex

[ecomeat]

Alex,
It is summer....and Rel 17 is VERY temperature sensitive. I used it in my very first 284 Win barrel, and got insane velocities out of it straight up , but quickly decided its far too temperamental for Qld .
I will have to go and find a notebook to double check, but from memory, an extra 6 deg C in ambient temp gave me an extra 104 fps . I decided it would be a terrific powder for Tasmania

[Winston]

Crikey, that's some sensitivity! I knew it had a bad rep, but nothing like that. Could certainly go a ways to explaining my variable results.

Where I am the mercury nudges 40 in summer, and drops to 10 in winter. I'm not overly keen on developing a load for each month, so it maybe that 09 is my friend.

I don't know when or if reloader 16 is coming to Australia, but I'm itching to get my hands on some. It is apparently formulated to address the temp issues with 17.

[ecomeat]

?............ 45.2 had nearly 2 inches of vertical at 200 yards, then only 0.1 of a grain more powder (4 bloody kernels!) up I shoot a 1/4 moa group with very little vertical. 45.4 went ugly again. ......

Alex

Did you shoot the loads Round Robin , or did you shoot the individual loads/groups separately ?
How many shots in each group ? How long did it take you from "start to finish".
Since I started following Williada's systems religiously, and he makes me write down ALL relevant data re weather conditions, air pressure, wind and changes etc, I have to admit that it's a bit scary to realise how much data I missed....ie didn't register.....I.didn't have a bloody clue.....before I "saw the light".

[KHGS]

Crikey, that's some sensitivity! I knew it had a bad rep, but nothing like that. Could certainly go a ways to explaining my variable results.

Where I am the mercury nudges 40 in summer, and drops to 10 in winter. I'm not overly keen on developing a load for each month, so it maybe that 09 is my friend.

I don't know when or if reloader 16 is coming to Australia, but I'm itching to get my hands on some. It is apparently formulated to address the temp issues with 17.

It can be very dangerous to run double based powders in the higher pressure range, they become very unstable when running them anywhere near max pressure levels. One of the down sides of these powders is the difficulty to obtain low E.S. Another downside of double based powders is that a lot of them (most) are generally harder on throats than single based powders. Some are quite dirty, from my point of view they are not a very attractive option, these are my opinions for what they are worth.
Keith H.

[Winston]

?............ 45.2 had nearly 2 inches of vertical at 200 yards, then only 0.1 of a grain more powder (4 bloody kernels!) up I shoot a 1/4 moa group with very little vertical. 45.4 went ugly again. ......

Alex

Did you shoot the loads Round Robin , or did you shoot the individual loads/groups separately ?
How many shots in each group ? How long did it take you from "start to finish".
Since I started following Williada's systems religiously, and he makes me write down ALL relevant data re weather conditions, air pressure, wind and changes etc, I have to admit that it's a bit scary to realise how much data I missed....ie didn't register.....I.didn't have a bloody clue.....before I "saw the light".

I did them as 5 shot groups spaced 10 min apart including one group to foul the barrel. Is there a thread on here outlining Williada's system? Sounds like something worth checking out.

[Winston]

Crikey, that's some sensitivity! I knew it had a bad rep, but nothing like that. Could certainly go a ways to explaining my variable results.

Where I am the mercury nudges 40 in summer, and drops to 10 in winter. I'm not overly keen on developing a load for each month, so it maybe that 09 is my friend.

I don't know when or if reloader 16 is coming to Australia, but I'm itching to get my hands on some. It is apparently formulated to address the temp issues with 17.

It can be very dangerous to run double based powders in the higher pressure range, they become very unstable when running them anywhere near max pressure levels. One of the down sides of these powders is the difficulty to obtain low E.S. Another downside of double based powders is that a lot of them (most) are generally harder on throats than single based powders. Some are quite dirty, from my point of view they are not a very attractive option, these are my opinions for what they are worth.
Keith H.

Thank you, Keith. I still have a lot to learn in this game, so your advice is most welcome. Looks like a switch to 09 is on the cards.

A question to the brainstrust here is I may ask another

Quickload is telling me that I can hit the same node that I am on now using a fairly compressed load of 2209 (107% case fill) . Using 3 thousandths neck tension, I can load a round and it doesn't grow or spring back. On the screen this looks like a reasonable load, giving me velocity not far behind what I am getting now with rl17 with about 56k of pressure

Is there anything to look out for when running such a compressed load? Any reason I should or shouldn't start exploring that more with 2209?

Thanks again,

Alex

[ecomeat]

If you search Members for Williada, you would find some 400 posts in Equipment and Technical, and you could probably go to a list of "See all users posts" at search.php?author_id=661&sr=posts.
Have a bit of a look and a read, and you will get the genera idea of what he is recommending.
There is a lot of info through the pages that can benefit you greatly.

[ecomeat]

Alex,
Quickload is the ultimate "computer programme", in that garbage IN will surely give you garbage OUT
I have never loaded for a 308 at all, but have done Ok shooting with a 284Win on the odd occasion .
I have seen it proven a few times now that it is absolutely critical that your measurements are both (a) extremely precise and accurate...and (b) taken from averaging a minimum of 10 individual measurements. It is a great tool for playing "what if" games , but IF and only IF your measurements are perfect. Used the wrong way .......eg incorrect measurements entered into QL...it can be quite dangerous.
I have zero experience with compressed loads, and as stated...I know SFA about loading 308s, but as a regular user of 50.5 to 51.8 gr of 2209 in a 284, there is no way in the world that I would be game to compress it. I surely wouldn't try it based on QL saying its possible ! I am pretty sure that pressures will skyrocket at an exorbitant rate once you start "compressing", with a powder like AR2209 and especially with 230 gr bullets that are 50% heavier than the common 155.5 gr used by a gazillion 308 shooters !!

What does the ADI book list as a maximum load for your projectile ?

[Normmatzen]

I shifted from H4831sc ( I think it is 2213sc in OZ?) when it became un-obtainium a couple years ago. As I had some RL-17 due to using it for a Swiss K-31 and my 7X57 hunting rifle, I tried it in my 284 WIN. I shoot at the Sacramento Shooting Center just outside Sacramento, California. Temp. here varies from 0 deg in the winter to 43 deg in the summer. As the temp can change a lot between first relay and last, I make it a habit of carrying my ammo to the range in a convenient insulated bag. And, I do this with my 6BRX as well burning Varget.

I disregard temp by doing this and my 284 WIN does real well with it. It is very close to 2209 in MV per load weight, but the pressure is lower so I have not had a problem with my 284 cases getting loose primers whilst running 2840 with 180 Hybrids or 2980 with 162 A-MAX. I am getting about 54,000 psi (per QL).
As an aside, I find the 162 A-MAX to work as well as the 180 Hybrid at 1000 yd.
I'm not sure that says as much about the A-MAX or my shooting ability! But, I sure prefer the price!

[Winston]

Alex,
Quickload is the ultimate "computer programme", in that garbage IN will surely give you garbage OUT
I have never loaded for a 308 at all, but have done Ok shooting with a 284Win on the odd occasion .
I have seen it proven a few times now that it is absolutely critical that your measurements are both (a) extremely precise and accurate...and (b) taken from averaging a minimum of 10 individual measurements. It is a great tool for playing "what if" games , but IF and only IF your measurements are perfect. Used the wrong way .......eg incorrect measurements entered into QL...it can be quite dangerous.
I have zero experience with compressed loads, and as stated...I know SFA about loading 308s, but as a regular user of 50.5 to 51.8 gr of 2209 in a 284, there is no way in the world that I would be game to compress it. I surely wouldn't try it based on QL saying its possible ! I am pretty sure that pressures will skyrocket at an exorbitant rate once you start "compressing", with a powder like AR2209 and especially with 230 gr bullets that are 50% heavier than the common 155.5 gr used by a gazillion 308 shooters !!

What does the ADI book list as a maximum load for your projectile ?

G'day Ecomeat,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately as I am doing something a little out of the box, I can't find any listed data, ADI or otherwise. Perhaps some f/tr guys stateside me get have some know how on this particular application.

I take your point about quickload and garbage in = garbage out. I've used it to work up loads for half a dozen rifles with pretty good success and am just back from the range checking the validity of a quickload simulation for a 2209 load with the 230's.

I'm going to take the plunge and try a reasonably compressed load as per what quickload is telling me. I'll work up, of course and take caution doing so. I'll be sure to report my findings.

Norm,

I hadn't thought of keeping ammo at a consistent temperature with a cooler. I always figured that once a round was chambered there would be a pretty quick transfer of heat and any efforts to reduce this would be negligible.

Are you getting consistent results with rl17?

Thanks for the help, fellas,

Alex

[Old Trev-39]

Any body considering running compressed loads is playing with fire. You may get away with it for a while but eventually the continued over stressing will cause something to let go. This could have disasterous effects, if not to the shooter, then to some body near by.
If a shooter in my club was considering doing this they would be taken aside and given a good talking to, and if they persisted in doing so would soon find themselves dismissed from the club. After all safety is of the utmost of importance. I cannot follow some peoples thinking that velocity is king. Quite often a accurate and well performing load can be found down from maximum loads, and is much easier on components. Do not try to beat the wind with velocity, just learn to read the wind.
My two bobs worth on the matter.
Cheers,
Trevor.

[Winston]

Any body considering running compressed loads is playing with fire. You may get away with it for a while but eventually the continued over stressing will cause something to let go. This could have disasterous effects, if not to the shooter, then to some body near by.
If a shooter in my club was considering doing this they would be taken aside and given a good talking to, and if they persisted in doing so would soon find themselves dismissed from the club. After all safety is of the utmost of importance. I cannot follow some peoples thinking that velocity is king. Quite often a accurate and well performing load can be found down from maximum loads, and is much easier on components. Do not try to beat the wind with velocity, just learn to read the wind.
My two bobs worth on the matter.
Cheers,
Trevor.

Trevor,

Just wondering what you base your assessment that compressed loads are disastrous on? ADI lists multiple compressed loads in their data. Hell, even the ubiquitous 45.x gr of 2208 under a 155 is a lightly compressed load. To suggest you would dismiss someone from your club for using a perfectly safe reloading practice is ridiculous.

Here is what Hodgdon have to say about compressed loads http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/reloading-beginners/compressed-loads

and Nosler http://faq.nosler.com/index.php?action=artikel&cat=37&id=51&artlang=en

I've no doubt that there's a mountain more sources out there, that's just what I found in 2 seconds of googling.


As for velocity - given the choice between two safe and accurate loads, one faster than the other, I'll taken the fast one

[KHGS]

Any body considering running compressed loads is playing with fire. You may get away with it for a while but eventually the continued over stressing will cause something to let go. This could have disasterous effects, if not to the shooter, then to some body near by.
If a shooter in my club was considering doing this they would be taken aside and given a good talking to, and if they persisted in doing so would soon find themselves dismissed from the club. After all safety is of the utmost of importance. I cannot follow some peoples thinking that velocity is king. Quite often a accurate and well performing load can be found down from maximum loads, and is much easier on components. Do not try to beat the wind with velocity, just learn to read the wind.
My two bobs worth on the matter.
Cheers,
Trevor.

Not true! Slower burning bulky powders are often compressed & where such powders are used, such as 2209 in 308 cases, it is not dangerous to use compressed loads. However using 2209 compressed loads in 30/06 cases for example will cause dangerous pressures depending the bullet in use. That said I do not like loads that call for compressed charges in target loads due to variable compression raising ES to levels where long range accuracy can be affected.
Keith H.

[johnk]

That said I do not like loads that call for compressed charges in target loads due to variable compression raising ES to levels where long range accuracy can be affected.

Ain't that the truth, the more so when insufficient neck tension causes bullets to back out in a random manner & really screw jump.