Ultrasonic Cleaning

[jasmay]

Keith, much like Denis, I was just offering my experience and not trying to undermine you.

Something else to consider with ultrasonics (I used them in my day job for years cleaning microscopic liquid jets) they don't last forever, this was another consideration when I decided that 2nd runs to neutralize vinegar was not worth it for me, your effectively halving it's life, and over time the unit becomes less effective.

Ultrasonics also work best with heat, higher temperatures to a point result in better cavitation which is the cleaning action, heating acetic acid increases its corrosive properties. I am not sure what cheaper units have on them, but everything I have dealt with has heating integrated

I also understand (correct me if I am wrong) but acetic acid does not dissolve carbon, so exactly what is it doing? One thing I do know is both zinc and copper are both soluable in acetic acid, is it detrimental, I don't know, but it is something to consider also, I would be wary leaving cases in any solution of vinegar (and commercial agents for that matter) for any long periods.

Detergent is also key to efficient cleaning, water/vinegar mixes have high surface tension and thus do not aid in the cleaning process of bonded contaminants, so as John23 suggested add a shot into your home solution if you choose to try one.

There was a good article on 6mmbr some time back about a number of different DIY solutions, shouldn't be hard to find with s Google.

Sorry for the science lesson.... And sorry if I've pissed anyone off.

[John23]

Some interesting points jamsay.

In regards to the science I have always been under the impression that carbon can not be dissolved/ broken down?

I have believed that the key is to dissolve any other chemicals mixed / bonded with the carbon.
That plus the agitation of the ultrasound allows the carbon to loose it's grip and come off the case/barrel ect.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Knowledge is power

[jasmay]

Some interesting points jamsay.

In regards to the science I have always been under the impression that carbon can not be dissolved/ broken down?

I have believed that the key is to dissolve any other chemicals mixed / bonded with the carbon.
That plus the agitation of the ultrasound allows the carbon to loose it's grip and come off the case/barrel ect.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Knowledge is power

Your correct with all of this in my understanding. (at least not with anything available for home use)

Commercial agents will be focusing on improved surfactants to aid in the wetting and lifting processes, and improved solution properties that maximise the cavitation.

[macguru]

Thanks for the science lesson jasmay, i too was set to refer to my university chem notes but i googled instead and found a scientific paper that says acetic acid does lift copper as well as zinc much to my surprise...My commercial cleaner has citric acid in it. Not sure about citric and tartaric but i think the bottom line is 5 minutes in DILUTE organic acid and some dishwashing liquid will do NO HARM to your cases IMHO. But i would not leave them standing for a week in cleaning vinegar

[KHGS]

Thanks for the science lesson jasmay, i too was set to refer to my university chem notes but i googled instead and found a scientific paper that says acetic acid does lift copper as well as zinc much to my surprise...My commercial cleaner has citric acid in it. Not sure about citric and tartaric but i think the bottom line is 5 minutes in DILUTE organic acid and some dishwashing liquid will do NO HARM to your cases IMHO. But i would not leave them standing for a week in cleaning vinegar

Might pay to reread & absorb my posts on the matter & just to clarify, I do not use heat & the two cycles I run are 10min each cycle!
I do not have a university degree, all that I write is based entirely on practical experience i.e. "been there done that" no anecdotal third hand opinion.
Keith H.
P.S. By the way, I have never even been to school. No school busses where & when I grew up so I was home schooled.

[macguru]

I think if you re read my posts you will see that we agree, in any case. Just approaching the same conclusions from different directions...

as for heat, again its a matter of degree but a safe answer is to dry them in the sunlight

[KHGS]

I think if you re read my posts you will see that we agree, in any case. Just approaching the same conclusions from different directions...

as for heat, again its a matter of degree but a safe answer is to dry them in the sunlight

I do think that the drying process is very important no matter what solution is used. If an acid solution is used then "stopping" the acid action is also most important.
Keith H.

[Razer]

As an aside, as I do not anneal there is no need for me to worry about carbon inside the necks.
I chuck all my brass into a tumbler(not with stainless steel media)and go away for about 4 hours.
I also only neck size and find that the infintesable amount of carbon acts as a lubricator which keeps the neck tension even.
Not being a metallurgist I cannot give an informed opinion on this comment, but, I believe that the long tumbling period evens out the molecular properties in the brass and so keeps it more uniform.
As I rarely full resize(like when needing brass for a new chamber) and I have at least one batch of common Winchester brass shot from my sons rifle that have been reloaded over 45 times with no discernible changes or split necks, loose primer pockets, etc. why change? What are the magical properties of this ultrasonic cleaning method?
My method also applies to my Lapua and RWS brass shot with 'stiff' loads.
I do understand why FO shooters may choose to have squeaky clean brass in order to anneal, etc. but annealed necks do not have the 'Squeak' so no affect on neck tension. New brass also comes annealed so no grab there either.
I know that Keith uses coated projectiles which overcomes the grab that I associate with ultrasonic cleaned brass.
So, if not annealing, why ultrasonic clean, apart from seemingly being quicker?
Just asking.
PS: I have seated brass in ultrasonic cleaned cases and the immediately pulled the projectiles just to observe. I found drag marks on the jackets, none of which were consistent, neither was the extraction pressure needed!
Does the scratched jacket contribute to copper fouling.

[Old Trev-39]

I haven ever annealed necks or used ultra sonic cleaners. All I do is push an appropriate bronze brush in an out of the neck, size 1/2of neck. wipe cases, clean out primer pockets, and re-load. If I do the right thing with the wind I shoot a 60 plus. Have had cases in some calibres still going after 30+re loads. I think anything else is wasted time and effort that should be put into qualifying projectiles.
Trevor.