Barrel Tuners For F Class

[Barossa_222]

I was wondering if anyone is running a tuner on their F-Class rig? Interested in what brands people are using or recommend.

[Brad Y]

Lots of people are using tuners and fixed dampeners. But just keep in mind they wont make a bad barrel good. They will increase the size of the accuracy node and help fine tune what success you already find in a barrel. Dont rely on one to make you gun just 'work' you still have to tune a load up as you normally do.

[IanP]

I use one on my 30-06AI which is on a 32", parallel, Truflight barrel. Its made by Adam Davies and uses a brass threaded sleeve which is loctited to the barrel. It requires the barrel to be turned down to a max dia of 22mm to fit the threaded sleeve. The tuner weight I got made is the same diameter as the barrel at 1.25"and its 2.3" long. http://www.daviestriggers.com.au/

It appears as a brass extension to the barrel and provides bling as well as barrel tuning. The 2.3" long adjustable tuner weighs in at approx 6 ounces. It required one full turn for closing the groups on my 200gr hybrid bullets and 1.25 turns for the 215gr hybids. The thread is fine and provides more precision and adjustment length than is really needed but it works well.

The parallel tuner is a custom design I asked Adam to make for me, based on Erik Cortina's (USA shooter) success with using a similar system. Adam will make you pretty much whatever you want based on the brass threaded sleeve attachment system. Erik's tuner requires a thread to be cut onto your barrel for fitting.

The picture below is Erik's tuner the one I got made is pretty much the same except its made of brass, (heavier than stainless) and adjusts on a threaded sleeve as opposed to threaded barrel.



Ian

[plumbs7]

I'm sorry about the ugly mug holding the rifle and the big cheesie winners grin ! But it's the only decent photo of the Davies tuner that I have.


As posted somewhere else this is what it shot at 900 yd just before I changed to a 28" barrel which I haven't fitted a tuner.

4 shot group . To say I was surprised was an understatement !

[plumbs7]

There's also a post where all of Australia's top shots talk about it .
http://ozfclass.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5675&start=0

Hope that helps ! GS

[Brad Y]

Mine is a large piece of stainless that screws straight on the end of the barrel and held in position with 3 nylon tipped grub screws. It weighs 700 grams. However I do follow Erik Cortinas method of how to set them up. You need to get a baseline on a load that performs best before you start turning the tuner. That means working a powder charge that shoots same POI in vertical then doing seating depth finally confirming it shoots well at long range. Then adjust the tuner to get the best shape out of the group. My shehane is being rechambered soon as Im mobile enough to take it to the smiths so I will re do the load work and tuner setting over the next month or two.

The only downside I see to my tuner is it may make some rifles that are already close to weight limit to be overweight, but if not there can be no doubt that 700gr will have some effect- if not as a tuner but definitely as a dampener of some kind.

[Fergus Bailey]

I have already posted on the thread linked above, but will add some more recent thoughts and findings in addition to my last post.

Since my last comments, I have shot the Australian BR group nationals over Easter this year. I was fortunate to come second in the 3 gun combined aggregate (sporter, light and heavy rifles). Two of the three barrels I used had tuners on them, and for one of these barrels I would rate the addition of a tuner as a major factor.

The sporter barrel I have used for the last few years as always looked like it wanted to shoot, but actual aggregates with this barrel have never been especially impressive. However I added a tuner to the barrel, and it seemed to improve its shooting immediately (this is the barrel I shot at the 2014 BR Nationals).

So in this one case at least, I saw an immediate improvement with the addition of the tuner. In a similar vane,the World Benchrest Championships was hosted in Silverdale NSW last October. The first days competition was won by a South African using a tuner. I was discussing this with the gunsmith who put the rifle together, as he is a good friend of mine. He noted that they put the tuner on this barrel, and "it just came alive". So while a tuner may not make a bad barrel good, it seems they can help a barrel that seems to want to shoot, but hasn't quite been able get there with load tuning alone.

Also, some of the tuners I have seen on long range rifles strike me as being comparatively heavy. Most BR tuners seem to be made around 3 oz these days (granted some are still using tuners of 7-8oz, but they are in the minority). Given that BR barrels are heavy contours, and typically 20"-22" long, I cant see that a heavier weight needs to be hung off a long range rifle barrel which is 28" or more long.

I notice the US gunsmith and BR hall of fame shooter Speedy Gonzales has been shooting and smithing rifles for F Class lately. Al least one of these rifles fro a customer has a "Stuart" tuner fitted, which is 3oz, and seems to be working well for him.

Just my observations on the topic FWIW.

[Brad Y]

Fergus,

Have you had much exposure to barrel stretcher tubes?

I have always considered doing one but I shoot a 6 dasher for 1000ydBR LG and Im still not 100% sure if a tuner or stretcher will have a positive enough effect on that gun- it already shoots very well with minimal load development for f class, Im sure a little more tweaking and it probably wont be worth putting a tuner of any kind on it. At 1000yds with those little guns they either group well or the wind blows the crap out of them. I might look at a tuner brake for it actually, as I do want to reduce the already minimal recoil for really running those strings down fast.

[DaveMc]

I have already posted on the thread linked above, but will add some more recent thoughts and findings in addition to my last post.

Since my last comments, I have shot the Australian BR group nationals over Easter this year. I was fortunate to come second in the 3 gun combined aggregate (sporter, light and heavy rifles). Two of the three barrels I used had tuners on them, and for one of these barrels I would rate the addition of a tuner as a major factor.

The sporter barrel I have used for the last few years as always looked like it wanted to shoot, but actual aggregates with this barrel have never been especially impressive. However I added a tuner to the barrel, and it seemed to improve its shooting immediately (this is the barrel I shot at the 2014 BR Nationals).

So in this one case at least, I saw an immediate improvement with the addition of the tuner. In a similar vane,the World Benchrest Championships was hosted in Silverdale NSW last October. The first days competition was won by a South African using a tuner. I was discussing this with the gunsmith who put the rifle together, as he is a good friend of mine. He noted that they put the tuner on this barrel, and "it just came alive". So while a tuner may not make a bad barrel good, it seems they can help a barrel that seems to want to shoot, but hasn't quite been able get there with load tuning alone.

Also, some of the tuners I have seen on long range rifles strike me as being comparatively heavy. Most BR tuners seem to be made around 3 oz these days (granted some are still using tuners of 7-8oz, but they are in the minority). Given that BR barrels are heavy contours, and typically 20"-22" long, I cant see that a heavier weight needs to be hung off a long range rifle barrel which is 28" or more long.

I notice the US gunsmith and BR hall of fame shooter Speedy Gonzales has been shooting and smithing rifles for F Class lately. Al least one of these rifles fro a customer has a "Stuart" tuner fitted, which is 3oz, and seems to be working well for him.

Just my observations on the topic FWIW.

Fergus, I think tuning and dampening are two very different things. Modelling up some of the barrel vibrations with reverse taper barrels and heavy barrel weights provides some remarkable changes to the "nature" of the vibrations. Fine tuning is a different matter altogether.

[ned kelly]

G'day all,
I think at the end of the day, it is the RESULTS on paper that matters, regardless of the preferred theory behind them........
I base this on 30 years of practical engineering in real world aviation and 18years of shooting competitively.
FWIW of course
Cheerio Ned

[Fergus Bailey]

Dave

Ned's post beat me to it, but I agree 100% with his point that results trump theory.

I can only relate what I have found to be the case from first hand experience. I am not saying my observations are the only way to achieve a result, but I know they work for me and others in competition.

I am also not suggesting that people should not experiment to move the sport forward. But if someone is asking (essentially) "how do I invest my money to improve my performance in the sport", then my first recommendation would always be to look at what the winners are doing, and copy them.

I know of a number of cases where theory would suggest there is an advantage, but at least to this point, actual results in competition have not borne this theoretical advantage out. An example in long range benchrest, and also in experimental/unlimited class short rang benchrest is tensioned barrels. In theory a barrel under tension from a sleeve over the barrel will provide a significant damping effect. And I know a number of people in the USA and Australia that have made rifles and tried this approach. However most of these attempts have been abandoned as the results to not materialise in terms of accuracy achieved.

[DaveMc]

With all due respect to both of you I never said the small tuners did not work in practice. But the big tuners have also shown very good results in the real world. Modelling helps us experiment and "understand what is going on".

There is a need in BR (AND INDEED F CLASS) for lightweight tuners and they work and do the job they are required to do.

Others in F class (with more weight to spare and a greater range of distances to tune) are experimenting with larger weights to significantly dampen vibrations (decrease the frequency and increase the total travel) in a very different way to tension sleeves (which by the way are very popular up here). Large weights on barrels also help tame torque role and action to stock torque stresses (despite a lot of comments on hanging big weights out the end to the contrary.) THEY SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGE THE NATURE FREQUENCY AND SIZE OF THE VIBRATIONS OF THE BARREL. These ideas are showing results in the real world as well. After Cam, Marty and Peter started their experiments I put a massive 900g weight on a barrel that was OK but not great - It brought it right in and also with a massive node and shoots well from 300-1000 with significant velocity/drop compensation from 300-800 yards.

Changing barrel dynamics in any form does exactly that and is not a guaranteed fix but it may well work to your advantage and is a simple thing to put on and take off again.

[Fergus Bailey]

Fergus,

Have you had much exposure to barrel stretcher tubes?

I have always considered doing one but I shoot a 6 dasher for 1000ydBR LG and Im still not 100% sure if a tuner or stretcher will have a positive enough effect on that gun- it already shoots very well with minimal load development for f class, Im sure a little more tweaking and it probably wont be worth putting a tuner of any kind on it. At 1000yds with those little guns they either group well or the wind blows the crap out of them. I might look at a tuner brake for it actually, as I do want to reduce the already minimal recoil for really running those strings down fast.

Hi Brad

I think I kind of answered your "stretcher" query above as a theory that doesn't seem to have lived up to its potential as yet? Or at least thats my take.

My thinking is that there is a good body of evidence over the last 10 or so years to show that muzzle devices, barrel tuners, or whatever you want to call them, have proven to work. This is not so much the case with a tensioned barrel, as the evidence here in match conditions is a lot thinner.

As an aside, I believe your reference to guns either grouping or not is down to the barrel / bullet / powder tune, but with a particular emphasis on the barrel. A good barrel makes shooting fun, and a not-so-good barrel makes shooting in the precision shooting sports miserable.

I see a lot of comments on some of the US sites that "its the Indian, not the arrow" regarding a shooters performance - particularly in reference to a match winners results. This thinking infers that a good shooter will beat the rest of the field with any rifle they pick up. However (at least in benchrest), I know that the great shooters spend a LOT of time sorting their equipment, but especially barrels to get the best results.

I believe that a skill that good shooters acquire over time is the knowledge and confidence to know when there equipment is helping them and when their equipment is letting them down. I would say it took me 8-10 years of BR competition to be able to call a bullet ordinary or very good, or a barrel great or not so good.

Of course the opposite occurs too, people blame their poor performance on perfectly good equipment, but in my observation people seem reluctant to blame their equipment more often than the reverse.

I hope I answered your question without getting too off course. Sorry if I rambled on too much.

[DaveMc]

As the original OP question is directly related to "F class" tuners I guess this is as good a place as anywhere to have this discussion. It is a fascinating topic and I doubt many people (including myself) fully understand all the ins and outs of all the tuners and their effects. Certainly some people have experience in certain areas and certain designs that work but I doubt many have the full range of experience in all types in various rifle designs.

BUT to discuss this in more detail and get some varying opinions seems appropriate

Firstly to match the "on paper results" call. I should point out that leading up to the world championships and actual event last year two stand out rifles were Marty's and Camerons. These guys might not brag about there results much but I will . In my opinion these two guys demonstrated they probably had 2 of the 5 most accurate rifles at the world championships.

To give an idea on how in tune these were at 800 yards (about the limit in my opinion with current designs to see significant velocity compensation in tuning). Cameron shot a 60.10 in national leadup (Presidents) followed by a 60.9 in the NRAA Queens (120.19/120.20 - not bad!). Marty shot the equivalent of a 90.15/90.15 in the World championships as well. Both guys have several barrels that use the same load and are tuned identically and all shoot well. From a coaches perspective they just damn well shot exactly where we pointed them. Their scores reflected that (Cameron being #1 in teams and Marty being # 2 in individuals and up there in the teams as well). Add to this Peter Smiths and my own experiences and we are starting to get a pattern of world class performance in what is essentially a very new area of development.

Please note I am in no way putting down Speedy's or Fergus's results or comments here.

Now for my thoughts (These are not facts just my opinion) I believe it is important to understand the basic differences between BR (short range in particular) and F class here. Short range benchrest rifles generally have shorter, stiffer barrels with higher frequency, lower amplitude vibrations. Short range benchrest shooters have a requirement to have their rifles tuned to much better than 0.25 moa (really absolute rifle accuracy of less than 0.1 moa or better seems to be the aim). Small tuners do a marvelous job of changing these vibrations and "fine tuning" such rifles to a high degree.

In F class where we shoot for score from 300-1000 yards our requirements are different. Absolute accuracy is nice but not essential (quarter minute elevation is exceptional and half minute generally good enough). We generally don't load or tune on the range and it is more important to have wide forgiving nodes. It is also a nice advantage to have some velocity compensation going on. (ie barrel dropping as velocity increases) over a wide range (ie large movement). Small barrel tuners will tune for the fine absolute accuracy but they will do less for dampening and also less for slowing frequency (but increasing size) of the larger vertical vibrations.

Making large weights as adjustable "tuners" is probably proving a little less productive than just having it on there.

They are quite different in their nature and should be considered on the grounds of "what am I trying to achieve?".

[johnk]

Nicely said, Dave.