.284W/180 VLD/AR2209/Lapua brass recommendations?

[DenisA]

Hi All,

I'd like to try ar2209 in my .284Win. Could somebody please recommend a starting load and let me know what the ball park common charge is?

My .284Win experience so far has only been with ar2213sc and this barrel doesn't seem to like it as much as I do.

I have the Berger reloading manual however it seems to be grossly lean with every cartridge I've seen in it.

I really appreciate any help and advice.

Cheers.

[Craig McGowan]

Hi There Stranger,

Have you gotten over the man flu yet?

With the 2209 start around 50.5 to 51.5.

I assume you are going to do some testing? If you have Friday morning free let me know.

[Matt P]

I'm using 50.0 - 50.5 depending on powder lot, in my 28" barrel it runs right around 2750 with low ES and excellent accuracy. Hope that's of some help.
Matt P

[Cameron Mc]

Denis

Bring some test loads for the up coming centenary shoot.
We can analyse the results afterwards.

Seriously, what Matt and Craig have said is what I would try with straight 284.
I will only use 2209 in my 284 Shehanes.

See you soon
Cam

[DenisA]

G'day Craig and Matty. Thank you very much for your advice. Perfect.

Craig, I can't take Friday off unfortunately. See you soon though.

[DenisA]

Thanks Cam, looking forward to seeing you and Julie.

[DenisA]

I'm guessing all the advice so far might be based on the standard 30" barrels?

Has anyone used ar2209 in a 32" .284Win? Just wondering if it might finish burning to early. I think ideally the powders supposed to finish burning at 95% ish of the barrel length..??

Cheers.

[Brad Y]

Denis

My take on 32 inch barrels is this. Consider them 30 inch barrels. Do the same thing you have always done for 30 inch barrels. The gun will come into tune at the same speeds as your looking at. Maybe at a slightly lower charge but still same speed. You get a bit extra weight and an extra chambering out of them if you dont run them too long between chambering. Thats about it.

[DenisA]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the advice on ar2209. This barrel likes it a lot more than ar2213sc. I did some initial .3gn increment load tests this morning, at 100 yards at Belmont and bracketed the middle node nicely, right where Craig, Matty and Cam said it would be. Its a good sized node too.
I think the next test needs to be in .1gn increments between 51gn and 51.3 gn for a couple of reasons. Firstly the ES is best in those 2 groups and secondly, subrscibing to the positive compensation theory, the groups position is on the vertical increase from 50.7gn to 51.3gn.

I'm pretty sure the low shot in 51gn was me letting some hand pressure off.

These tests were done at .004" jam. Once I've done the second lot of powder tests, I'll try some different seating depths.

Heres some pics. For those not familliar with these targets, the each box is made up of 4 x 1" squares for perspective. All 5 shot groups bar the foulers.

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate your advice.

[ecomeat]

Looking good, big fella !!
I think you should let the barrel cool properly for about TEN DAYS, and then retest
Just use your 6BR at North Arm OPM next weekend while it cools properly

[DenisA]

Looking good, big fella !!
I think you should let the barrel cool properly for about TEN DAYS, and then retest
Just use your 6BR at North Arm OPM next weekend while it cools properly

Ha, ha, ha. Good chance I'll be using the 6BR anyway. I'll see how testing on Wednesday morning goes. Can't wait for the weekend, it should be a GREAT event and lots of fun.

Are you coming up Tony?

[Brad Y]

Denis

Was the fast shot in 51gr the one that went low?

[DenisA]

Yes it was Brad. I'd marked it next to the MV "6:00 shade over target". Doubt that was anything to do with it now. At 2828 fps I don't think it was that much faster that that's where the barrel was pointing when it existed, otherwise the 2825 fps shot before it would be lower than the group???? I'm not sure. looking at all groups inline, my feeling is that I've muffed that one.

[Brad Y]

Definitely looks good mate!

[williada]

Denis,

I had a quick look at the pattern.



The Macro trend is slightly negative, so anything past group 5 is going to open up with distance.

The good news is that this barrel can find a micro neutral section from 50.1 to 50.7 and is your best window for load development. May I suggest you tinker with 50.2, 50.3 and 50.4. Around 50.3 you just might get a bit of micro positive lift. Or you could take that lateral out with a tuner. The variable tuner is perfect for small changes with your barrel. Any group past 50.4 will slip into negative territory when environmental changes occur.

As I have mentioned before, that bit of “lateral” group can be reduced by playing with neck tension. It is so necessary to do this about a node. It can be done with tiny bits of free flight. Any group shape is not really a linear change because of the vibrations going up the barrel and coming back where the bullet is in the middle of them. The waves tend to stack up where they clash to form a node. Similarly this lack of seemingly logic, (its counter intuitive) applies to extreme spreads around a nodal area and your tightest extreme spread may not be your best group up short. Often when we shoot fast, the groups form beautifully and tend to be rounder and there is not so much lateral on a good tune. I think this has something to do with a plasma state of particles and may be evidenced with fouling a few inches from the end of the barrel when the heat and pressure drop and the particles change back to a solid form. But the reality is, we cannot shoot fast all the time due to observing and altering for wind and we are going to experience that lateral. So it’s best to reduce it as much as we can. Edit: I would like to point out that sometimes while waiting, we can blame a wind change for the lateral or mirage if you haven't seen it. On the other hand we can have the illusion of under correcting or overcorrecting if we do see a change and particularly when new shooters follow each shot and aim off. It can give the impression of altering on a crook shot. You must learn the rifles expected group centre and make assessments for wind or mirage based on that and coaches must know that too.

Another observation with these groups is the anti node or hollow group. Perhaps, more on that later. But could I say, that many a good barrel was thrown out in the past in the days of issued ammunition. Percy used to smile and give them to me when others rejected them. So knowledge is power. That quote is in Sweets book, from Sir Francis Bacon and it is so true.

Could I say, with groups I have examined, Tim’s had a macro positive compensation profile, Tony’s which some have not seen, had a Neutral; and now Denis’s has a a slightly negative compensation profile. We indeed have a representative set, but Denis’s has the widest window to play with and is the least sensitive barrel of the three.

When doing this type of testing, it’s a good idea to label the speed on the plot of each bullet because that is also a clue for the direction the group will form with different charges. For example take note of the low left and low right shot either side of the node with 50.1 and 50.7 respectively. These can indicate whether you are about to rise to a node or slip off one. I also use the height of these shots to determine compensation profile.

Generally, three shot groups are less informative and you can be sucked in as to the whereabouts of nodes because we tend to be drawn to clusters. That extra one or two shots in each group often paints a more realistic picture.

Also, in doing a round robin test, with say, a 45 second interval, will highlight the worst case scenario in terms of your barrel fouling or walking under warm up. This is good, because you want your gear to handle the worst case scenario best and that is what compensation tuning does. It also embodies the OCW theory in my testing because I want to be about a node that has the largest window in terms of elevation if conditions change.

The short range groups, maybe tweaked at 300 yards and 500 yards for elevation, if they need it. I usually do that with a tuner because mound angles can be a factor.

Finally, when setting up these tests at short range, it is important to watch your position when sighting changes for each target from right to left because you can induce a lateral factor because your rifle is not riding straight back. It would be good if a Guru with electrical knowledge could build a target for short range testing that could be radio controlled to wind a roll of paper through a target area so you did not have to aim off for each shot in the round robin. This would make plotting the tape so to speak and reading it so much easier.

Looking good Denis.
David.