1000 yard QRA Queens scores.

[ecomeat]

This is really a bit of an addendum to Williada's comments on the Teams thread (under Events) but i thought it could fit here in "Equipment & Technical" at the same time, in its own right.
We have been discussing/musing re the final 1000 yard range at Belmont last week, but for some reason the NRAA Results dont actually show the scores for that range.
The list below is from my own "running score" sheet, and results at 900 and 1000 were added manually after scooting up and down the scoreboards. Somehow I missed Richard Braund altogether (sorry mate ) and wasnt taking great care with the X count at that point in time.
Have a look at the two yellow columns below. This is just an exercise to look at just how hard the final Belmont 1000 yards was, so i have only done it for the top 24 or 25 shooters from my list at the end of Day 2.
The first yellow column is "Total Points down prior to the 1000 yards", and the second one is "Points Lost JUST AT 1000 yards", so that the comparison is literally comparing points lost on that last 1000 yard range, Versus the previous total 9 ranges.
It certainly demonstrates the carnage inflicted on some, by that final range.
I dont know the Targets that the 24 shooters were on, and i dont have their velocity in fps, but if i did, it would certainly add some color to Davids comments re laminar wind flows etc in the "Teams" thread, and the potential value of Hybrids and sufficient velocity to cut through the rough stuff on this particular final range.
I think we need to add "velocity" to the Equipment List questions !!

[Matt P]

Tony
You also need to add into that equation were everyone was on the range as well. Craig,Geoff and myself were all in the middle of the range at the same time and we all got belted. I was running VLD's @ 2750.
Matt P

[williada]

Matt, your load had two of three factors which were possibly working against you. Low velocity node, and a VLD in those conditions. People using a projectile with less diameter would be up for further punishment unless their velocity was higher to reduce some of these effects.

I could point out that the effectiveness of all bullets is reduced in these conditions, some more than others assuming your equipment and position are first rate. Some people may be squadded in the worst area on the mound, on the day, at a particular time when hazardous conditions were maximised or concentrated.

While you think a compensation tune may help, there is more to it than that.

Its all very well to talk theory, but it is irrelevant in a training program, until you experience the problem. It is necessary only to introduce one step at a time in such a program to gain the big picture. That takes a long time to be done properly. In rushing advanced thinking when people are not ready for it, can lead to placing emphasis in the wrong place. Whereas, the hands on etches the event in your memory forever.

I understand there is a new chrono out that enables bystanders to point it towards the shooter from behind. Purely from a research perspective the velocity figures in future events could be verified for positive results in terms of hit on the target. I know there has been talk about using these chromos for purposes of catching offenders who break range limits. David.

[macguru]

Sounds like bad luck more than anything you can prepare for. Another 200fps muzzle velocity may have helped a point or so but any rifle with enough punch to make a difference would be well over the energy/calibre limits. I saw Matt get a 60 at 1000 with what i am pretty sure was the same load at belmont 1000 exactly a year ago...

A good point you raise in another thread is that it would be nice to have a place in Sydney to get some 1000yard practice.... But at Hornsby that would involve all the cars in the Hospital car park rolling down their windows so we can shoot through them

[williada]

Andrew the comparisons of Matt's previous loads have to be considered in light of the same wind sector and position on the mound in relation to any funnelling or concentration of wind patterns to draw any conclusions. VLD's shine in crosswinds but because they re-orient quickly into wind flow they are suspect in lumpy laminar flows.

I certainly don't think you needed an extra 200 fps and to break velocity limits but lower order nodes such as 2750 would not have performed as well as a node 100 fps faster at 2850 fps. We will have to look at the evidence to be sure.

I will also say that free recoil shooting when you need extra speed loses valuable energy that could be translated into a higher 20-30 fps with a tight shoulder grip. Certainly the old sling shooters new about velocity changes from a loose position to a tight one. Its just another piece in the armoury when you cannot put a few more grains in. Its another strategy like running the gun fast, shooting a window of conditions or hunting and pecking. David.

[bartman007]

I was on the right bank. I took five sighters until I got in the center So that was my 3 dropped shots. I then ran with the conditions to stay in.

Those shots were lost in the wind......not elevation.

I suspect the right high bank could have influenced the true wind affecting the bullets. In that wind reflected back off the wall could have reduced the total wind deflecting the bullet.

Cam shot 2 targets to the right of me around the same time, with a bigger gun. He got the lot.

[macguru]

Perhaps we could turn the range around and face east as well..... It works for NASA

[Norm]

I shot a 60.7 at 900 then went back to 1000 and lost 5 shots, mostly to vertical, shooting on the same target which was on the right hand side of the range. My MV was 2790fps and I shot 180gn Hybrids.
The only difference between the two relays apart from the distance was the wind direction. At 900 it was R to L at 45 while at 1000 it was straight at me.
Tim shot next to me at 1000. He did a great job I though to only drop 2 shots in the conditions. Tim shot really well right through the comp and I think he will collect a few 1st place badges soon.

[KHGS]

I was in the middle of the range on all my 1000's, my vertical at all the 1000's was waterline except for a couple of "squeakers", these were quartering shots that would have been in if I had the wind right or the vertical on those shots right (operator error). VLD bullets lower accuracy node, 2850fps in my 280HI, I do not like higher accuracy nodes which are notorious for being narrow & too easy to be "off tune" with temperature & elevation changes depending on location. My loads were developed in mild temperatures around mid 20's. I do not develop loads in winter. I have always found AR2213 to yield narrow tune bands so I do not go there, I love 2209 where applicable. I do not focus on velocity only, my primary focus is on accuracy & as wide a tune as I can achieve, I think we sometimes put too much emphasis on a velocity rather than on accuracy & wide tune bands. My barrels usually run longer than average too. Higher nodes can reduce barrel life by as much as 20% maybe more.
Keith H.

[DenisA]

Cam shot 2 targets to the right of me around the same time, with a bigger gun. He got the lot.

Cheeky Cam

At the MDRA 900y shoot, the conditions were all over the shop, what I thought, and many other scores suggested, were HORRIBLE. I think I was on T28(there abouts) and Cam was shooting on the next target to my right.
I was really concerned and started the shoot with "damage control" in mind which was probably the wrong mind set.

Long story short. I got up with a 54.3 actually feeling pretty happy thinking it could have been a 50! As I start check scoring, I look over and see Cam shot a 60.3. "WTF!!!, How'd you do that!!" I said.

As Sellsy keeps saying, he is a masterful man

[saum2]

Matt,
yes I was next to you and Craig, I was sure my vertical lost shots X 2 were from the mound as my rear plate was very unstable on the grass. Maybe Tim's rear plate helped him more. I used Hybrids @ 2930.
Remember, we did have a big wind shift and after that it all went pear shaped. I looked over at Craig's target at the time, he got caught with a wide 3 O'clock 3 or 4 not sure.
Having shot 1000yds twice before I had a solid piece of mound both times with excellent waterline, but with side wind only.
So, was it mound or frontal shit wind causing grief? If you had a stable rear plate & mine wasn't and we both got vertical using different projectiles at different speeds, did the mirage play more than wind???
I didn't have a lot of time left to wait out the weather as I'd already used a fair bit after my first 5 shots.
I used 14 minutes and still got smashed.
Interesting to note, the day before at 900yds it was warmer we both shot good 60+ twice then next morning it was cold I had vertical as well at 900yds but scrambled a 60 from it. 1000 was a lot worse vert.
Geoff

[plumbs7]

I'm still having troubles with vertical and am confident it's shoulder pressure .

However at the nationals , in the lead up I can recall people complaining about vertical from I think it was at time 600 yds onwards . I only shot the main comp . I'm also confident that 900 yds meltdown was me !

The middle at Belmont can be hard at 1000 yds . I remember last year everyone in my detail got hammered but S Green masterfully weaved his way through the conditions to win the 1000 yds in Ftr using only 155's .

So what's missing? It's just Hard , I think! Don't know! ??
Regards Graham Sells.
Ps yes Cam is the Master lol!

[BATattack]

I think what we really need to ask is those that scored highly . . . we're they actively holding for vert or only shooting on one condition to minimize it's effect?

I didn't feel there was that much in it?? I was shooting fairly central in the range and started with about 1moa right on and got into the string then it started to come straight down the range and that's when I stopped and I think a lot of others did to. Then it started to come in from the left and when the mirage started to build I took a punt on the left condition amd held about 1.5moa left and scored a 6 with matching vert. There were a lot of quick patches of running and boiling mirage and I wonder if that was having more of an influence on elevation than wind?

[RAVEN]

Cam shot 2 targets to the right of me around the same time, with a bigger gun. He got the lot.

I scored Cams string and it was just holding 6 ring the wind from memory was coming from the right 1 o'clock to straight down range and we were right of centre on the range
my gun had .5 MOA right wind when I finished
I lost 1 to wind (left hand squeaker) and the rest were vertical 12 & 6 o'clock and I put that down to my load not tune or barrel going south.

RB

[RDavies]

I was watching vertical a few times at 900 and 1000yds at Belmont, usually with my spotting scope so I could see quite a few targets. Often I would see a trend across a few targets with 4-5 targets in a row starting to creep up in the 6 ring. Then a few shots later, they started to drift down again. Earlier, during the Brisbane OPMs my new rifle was shooting perfect vertical at 1000yds, less than X ring. This was on the RHS of the range with a 90 degree side wind. Later, during the Queens I noticed a few were moving up and down the target when I knew their rifles were well in tune. I know my rifle often had very good vertical during the team shoots but did not know what the wind direction was then. At the final 1000yd of the Queens, my rifle was using the whole 6 ring in elevation, creeping up and down, but then so were others around me so I knew it was not my rifle at fault. At this time, the wind was going from quartering to fully towards me.
When we were squadded, it was not real squadding as my 1st few shooters were very very slow so I got to watch all other F Open shooters shoot while I was spotting through my spotting scope in my chair. At the final 900 I remember watching a few people getting very high X counts and thinking it was going to be easy. I got down when F/tr shooters were shooting and watching through my spotting scope while shooting, some were copping it badly with shots going from side to side ( a few 4s)but not too much vertical. At this time it was a 90 degree wind with let offs and pick ups. Later on at 1000yds, I watched some F Open shooters cop some bad conditions and I was expecting the worst. By the time I got down there was a brief window when the wind started to swing around from quartering right to head wind (but not as tricky as those who shot 5 min earlier). The F/TR shooters around me were getting some vertical, but no real wild wind shots (lots of 5s, but not many 4s). As there were some good shots either side of me, I watched their shots on target and if they were trending up or down, I would give the scope just a safety click up or down which saved me from some high and low 5s which others were getting.