Dialing in some Vertical with Tuner to Improve Wind Bucking

[pgcpty]

Have read that dialing in some vertical with your tuner can improve wind bucking performance. I can do this using high/low loads and adjusting the Tuner though the node range so that high loads land higher than low loads, high loads land on the water line with low loads or high loads land lower than low loads.

Questions
1. where to set the spread range
2. why?
3. How does this phenomenon work?

Thanks
pgcpty

[Brad Y]

You probably want to get ahold of Tony Boyers book and have a read.

[pgcpty]

Hi,
Can you give me any details on that book, title, publisher, when?
Thanks
pgcpty

[Brad Y]

http://www.rifleaccuracybook.com/

[pgcpty]

Thanks Brad Y,

Also looking for some local input. Are any F-Class shooters out there using tuners adjusted to leave a vertical component to improve wind bucking?

I read on Benchrest Central the Jackie Schmitt does this

Looking to understand how to setup and explanation on if/how/why it works.

pgcpty

[Brad Y]

I dont run an adjustable tuner to do this, but I load to produce a round group. Anything flat but wide can be a problem. Theres only a few running adjustable tuners that I know of so will wait for them to chime in.

[mike H]

I think someone is having a lend of you,it is easier to loose a shot from wind error,at the top or bottom of the centre ring.Once you get out of the six ring,you get a five or worse,there isn't any benefit whether the wide shot is horizontal or vertical.
Just try to tune the load to put the low velocity rounds high,so they go into the group,and better still work on minimising velocity spreads.

[pgcpty]

Mike H
What do you make of this?

Re Jackie Schmitt 2/3/2015 Benchrest Central wrote
"Another thing that a tuner can do is allow you to fine tune the characteristics of the tune within the tuning window. One mistake many shooters make is thinking that a flat shooting rifle is in tune. They keep shooting .350 long "caterpillars" straight across the target, or 1" ones at 200. The tuner will allow you to tweak a small amount of vertical into the tune so the Rifle is so not darned wind sensitive.

This is especially helpful in score shooting. 30BR's can be a nightmare to shoot if you are caught in that "Horizontal tune", where you physically can't see the small changes that cause the bullets to go a lot further than they should. If I find my 30 is too wind sensitive to the left and right, I will tweak the tuner, get a little vertical in the Rifle, and go from there."

It works. Perhaps not so much in Group Shooting, because if the group forms just outside the moth ball, it's not as big of a deal, the skill of the shooter can overcome this, as you can always chase that first shot.

Is it just a matter of exchanging say 1/2 MOA of horizontal spread in a flat group for a more rounded group giving you the 1/2 MOA more wind widow?

[Tim N]

Hi All
I'm curious as to how dialling vertical in or anything for that matter will make a round less wind sensitive?
My experience with tuners is minimal
What I did see with one test was a group that remained the same shape but changed orientation as the tuner was adjusted
In calm conditions It gave 3 shots flat, 3 vertical, 3 flat all rotating to the right.
I guess the vertical group would be better as this would remove doubt of a misjudged wind call or horizontal variation in the grouping ability of the rifle.
But it wouldn't be any less wind sensitive

[mike H]

pgcpty,
All I can say is for you to tune up some loads and get on a range with plenty of wind changes and see what works.Being able to relate the bullet impacts with the wind speed is the challenge.

[plumbs7]

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The above is my old rem 700 26" light varmint Lilja barrelled rifle with a tuner . I can't show u the setup only the results sorry! the barrel has about 2000 plus rounds and never been rechambered .

I don't think tuners will make a projectile Buck the wind , as BC is deterministic and cannot be changed , given a set velocity! However if ur gun is shooting near zeros . It will be more user friendly in wind calling as u have more to play with!

The vertical that u are referring to is more to do with positive compensation . That is the slower rounds get thrown slightly higher and the faster ones slightly lower!
I think Super accuracy and good wind calling = results ! Maybe this is where u r coming from?
Regards Graham.

[ecomeat]

The above is my old rem 700 26" light varmint Lilja barrelled rifle with a tuner . I can't show u the setup only the results sorry! the barrel has about 2000 plus rounds and never been rechambered .

I don't think tuners will make a projectile Buck the wind , as BC is deterministic and cannot be changed , given a set velocity! However if ur gun is shooting near zeros . It will be more user friendly in wind calling as u have more to play with!

The vertical that u are referring to is more to do with positive compensation . That is the slower rounds get thrown slightly higher and the faster ones slightly lower!
I think Super accuracy and good wind calling = results ! Maybe this is where u r coming from?
Regards Graham.

Graham,
If the "thing" on your barrel can't be adjusted, it is not a tuner. It is literally just a "dead weight"
Does your 26" Lilja barrel have a tuner, as per the OP's postings ? Or does yours have a dead weight ..... which means that it is definitely NOT a tuner.

Do you plot your shots when load developing ? I have never heard you mention doing it, and there are never shot falls/plots marked on your target so would assume that you don't. And if you don't accurately plot the fall of shot then i would think that you can't possibly identify/isolate "Positive Compensation" in a given load. So I don't think you can conceivably attribute vertical stringing in any load to just being "Positive Compensation"

[johnk]

My understanding of what Boyer says relates to the conformity of groups. A perfect group will have uniformity on both the X & Y axes; those in a lesser state of tune will tend towards either X or Y irregularity. Being a benchrest shooter & subject to the arcane rules under which they shoot he is aware of the probability that the load(s) that he goes to the bench with might not be perfect for ambient conditions. Therefore, he is prepared to lose a tad of vertical in his group to counter the possibility that the rifle group will form on the vertical axis, the one most subject to the deleterious effects of wind.

[BATattack]

The bullets BC can't change BUT short range BR shooters often use bullets and barrels that are on the ragged edge of stability.

guys like Tony Boyer rave about basically using a "control" batch of bullets and filtering through dozens of barrels hoping to find the hummers. Tony theory is a hummer barrel is one that shoots through wind changes like no other barrel will.

I recon what he's really finding is the "hummer" barrels are obviously good barrels but ones that are giving the bullet slightly more spin or stability reducing bullet wobble so reducing drag and increasing BC making it able to "shoot through wind changes".

The adjustment of tune to create less wind drift could be caused by 2 things in my mind.

think about using a gun that shoots a tall skinny groups. If the group is shorter than the scoring ring, off a rest, your going to be able shoot possibles. If that group is skinnier than it is tall it's going to feel like your shooting through wind because you gaging how wide your group SHOULD be off of how tall the group is.

Second theory. maybe it relates to something similar to barrel indexing? could adjusting the tuner make the bullet leave the barrel in a way that aligns it better with the trajectory or wind direction which could help reduce drag or increase the BC?

[plumbs7]

The above is my old rem 700 26" light varmint Lilja barrelled rifle with a tuner . I can't show u the setup only the results sorry! the barrel has about 2000 plus rounds and never been rechambered .

I don't think tuners will make a projectile Buck the wind , as BC is deterministic and cannot be changed , given a set velocity! However if ur gun is shooting near zeros . It will be more user friendly in wind calling as u have more to play with!

The vertical that u are referring to is more to do with positive compensation . That is the slower rounds get thrown slightly higher and the faster ones slightly lower!
I think Super accuracy and good wind calling = results ! Maybe this is where u r coming from?
Regards Graham.

Graham,
If the "thing" on your barrel can't be adjusted, it is not a tuner. It is literally just a "dead weight"
Does your 26" Lilja barrel have a tuner, as per the OP's postings ? Or does yours have a dead weight ..... which means that it is definitely NOT a tuner.

Do you plot your shots when load developing ? I have never heard you mention doing it, and there are never shot falls/plots marked on your target so would assume that you don't. And if you don't accurately plot the fall of shot then i would think that you can't possibly identify/isolate "Positive Compensation" in a given load. So I don't think you can conceivably attribute vertical stringing in any load to just being "Positive Compensation"

Hi Tony , yes it's an Aussie made after market tuner made down in the southern states.

Yes I don't plot my shots! Too far to walk 200 m after every shot! Lol! The above is my hunting barrel and I have been doing some R and D on harmonics borrowing on some ideas from some good Qlders.
As for plotting for positive compensation on the above test . Well 4 shots went through the same hole with me or wind behind shootig that high shot so not mush use plotting . I'm convinced that a good load and tune combo will shows itself in the first 2-3 shots. I mainly look for low extreme spreads and how it groups at 600 yards.

When a rifle is in tune , possibles are easier to come by thus feeling like it bucks the wind or is a hummer!