Neck sizing cases VS full length sizing?

[Tod7.62]

Hi Everyone, hoping to get some opinions and explanations on which way people reload their cases and why??

Seems to be two different camps on this subject would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

Cheers Tod.

[RDavies]

I full length size every time, bumping back the shoulder .002".
The reasons I full length size each and every time are so that cases will always chamber easily, and the bolt will close easily, making it easier and faster to cycle the action.
The easy bolt closing also reduce upsetting the rifle in the bags as well as reducing bolt lug wear and galling.
Since I only push the shoulder back .002", cases still last a long time. (some of my cases have been used 20-30 times in 3 barrels.).

I would guess that the reason some people think full length sizing shortens case life is because they used the die manufacturers instructions and wound their dies down all the way until they contact the shell holder. Following instructions in this instance can cause you to push the shoulders back to far, giving excessive head space and case stretch. With some of my dies, if I wound them all the way down as per manufacturers instructions, some of my cases will be pushed back over .020"

If you buy Widden dies, they come with a tool to measure how much you are pushing your shoulders back.

[mike H]

Most of mine are body die sized and Lee Collet neck sized for 308 cartridges,the .223's are getting Full Length sizing a lot more these days.

I have always thought an expensive rifle action makes a poor reloading press.

[KHGS]

I full length size every time, bumping back the shoulder .002".
The reasons I full length size each and every time are so that cases will always chamber easily, and the bolt will close easily, making it easier and faster to cycle the action.
The easy bolt closing also reduce upsetting the rifle in the bags as well as reducing bolt lug wear and galling.
Since I only push the shoulder back .002", cases still last a long time. (some of my cases have been used 20-30 times in 3 barrels.).

I would guess that the reason some people think full length sizing shortens case life is because they used the die manufacturers instructions and wound their dies down all the way until they contact the shell holder. Following instructions in this instance can cause you to push the shoulders back to far, giving excessive head space and case stretch. With some of my dies, if I wound them all the way down as per manufacturers instructions, some of my cases will be pushed back over .020"

If you buy Widden dies, they come with a tool to measure how much you are pushing your shoulders back.

Absolutely correct, the only thing I do differently is that I body size & use a Lee collet die to size the neck.
keith H.

[Brad Y]

Full length dies should be sold with either an RCBS precision mic, or some other form of headspace gauge so they can be set up properly! Rod nailed it. Easy in, easy out and all cases measure the same.

[Tod7.62]

So Redding bushing type dies are not in favour with you guys?
No alignment advantage with neck sizing only?

Or partially neck sizing?

Cheers Tod

[RDavies]

So Redding bushing type dies are not in favour with you guys?
No alignment advantage with neck sizing only?

Or partially neck sizing?

Cheers Tod

For myself, all of my FLS dies are Redding bushing dies or Widden dies but I have never measured run out or concentricity, so I am curious to hear from those who use other sizing methods and what they have measured with run out.
I was never a fan of partial neck sizing as when the pressure ring on flat base bullets, or the boat tail junction on boat tail bullets hits the unsized area, the bullet seating force suddenly drops down. Another thing I found was in some cartridges where the FLS die didn't size all of the neck, that after a few heavy loads, the unsized portion of the neck would start to jam up in the chamber until I used another die to size down the whole neck.

[DenisA]

I FLS and neck only depending on circumstance.

6BR's handle pressure so well that I've found FLS is not necessary. 105gn VLDs with the typical 30.5gn ar2208. After 18 firings the PP are as tight as day 1 and running a scribe up the inside of the head, there is absolutely zero thinning in the wall. They are never tight to chamber or tight to extract in my no turn chambers.

I run moderate loads in my no turn .284W. I now only anneal them every 6 firing or so. Basically when the spring back after neck sizing starts to become a little inconsistent. I will generally FLS with .001" shoulder bump after I anneal.
I like the idea of only neck sizing on necked up Lapua brass as donuts form easily with this cartridge at the shoulder neck junction with time and brass flow and partial neck sizing keeps the donuts away from the bulletg in the early stages of the donuts development.

I run light loads in my .300wsm and like the 6BR they handle pressure extremely well. That said, like the .284W I will FLS when I anneal every 6ish firings.

It goes with out saying that you have to FLS prior to turning necks.

I like the idea of having my brass fit a chamber properly and giving the bullet the best chance of being aligned to the centre bore line as I can. That said, I have NEVER fire formed fresh brass with a tuned load that has not shot equivalent or better than fire formed brass.

[AlanF]

Over the last few years with the 7 Shehane I had been always FL sizing, then recently tried just neck sizing with some chamberings, but found it difficult to keep brass uniform, so now back to FL everything. Bullet runout is generally worse with FL sizing, but on the plus size, because the case diameter is smaller at the shoulder end, the projectile will centre in the lands better. I use a Redding Type S bushing FL die. It sizes about 2/3 of the neck. As Rod says, it does mean a slight release on the pressure ring with deep seated bullets. On the other hand, it means less problems with donuts.

I have found the Redding instant indicator to be very quick for assessing what shoulder bump is required. If you want to be precise you can sort the brass according to how much is needed, then use different competition shellholders accordingly.

[KHGS]

Over the last few years with the 7 Shehane I had been always FL sizing, then recently tried just neck sizing with some chamberings, but found it difficult to keep brass uniform, so now back to FL everything. Bullet runout is generally worse with FL sizing, but on the plus size, because the case diameter is smaller at the shoulder end, the projectile will centre in the lands better. I use a Redding Type S bushing FL die. It sizes about 2/3 of the neck. As Rod says, it does mean a slight release on the pressure ring with deep seated bullets. On the other hand, it means less problems with donuts.

I have found the Redding instant indicator to be very quick for assessing what shoulder bump is required. If you want to be precise you can sort the brass according to how much is needed, then use different competition shellholders accordingly.

A Lee collet neck die (used correctly, not by the instructions) will sort the run out issues. Not that some runout is an issue, but that is another thread!
Keith H.

[Tod7.62]

Hi Keith I'm curious to know what is the correct method for setting up a Lee collet neck sizing die?

Have you compared rounds loaded with the Lee vs a Redding bushing die?

Cheers Tod.

[johnk]

I use it thuis way:

Using The Lee Collet Die.

I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .

If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.

There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.

[Tod7.62]

Thanks John.

Just wondering have you compared a cartridge loaded this way vs one loaded in a Redding bushing die?

It's just that the Redding seems to be a very popular choice amongst F Classes.

I'm currently using a Set of Forster dies not bushing type. As I was lead to believe they were the go?

But it appears to me after asking a lot of people at shoots that the majority were using Redding bushing dies to adjust neck tension.

Cheers Tod

[johnk]

Tod,

As I said recently on another forum, I use the Lee dies for calibres that they make them for & bushing dies when they don't - Wilson dies for preference. In the latter case, I'm talking about cases with suitably close case neck/chamber dimensions so that the case isn't overworked, or needing to be worked with two or more bushes.

John

[pjifl]

It is possible to modify Lee Collet Dies to suite many cartridges for which they are not specifically made but you need a Lathe to do some of the mods.

It is simply a matter of cutting or making new spacers to adapt to a shorter case.Slightly longer cases may be catered for by grinding a bit off the bottom of the collet. If you overdo this a spacer will redeem the situation so Lee Collet dies are an experimenters friend.

For example, I made one to suite 6BR from something much longer. Probably a 243. I cannot remember the details.

If you want to experiment with 'standard' rebated base cartridges (like the 284) you may need to start with a magnum Lee die. In fact, all of the smaller cartridges can be catered for with die bodies intended for Magnums.

Take one apart and look carefully at how they operate. Lee themselves cater to a range of cartridges by having a few standard outer shells and then a range of spacers and collets and tops.
Spacers can go under the main Collet or above the top cone collar. The actual collet can also me trimmed at the bottom. While hard, it can be turned and parted with carbide tooling. Or ground down. A spacer can also be placed below the top mandrill holding ring to keep it a little higher. Many of these spacers do not need the accuracy of a Lathe but it does make life easier.

Sometimes the collet top and its mating cone are poorly finished and will stick and not slide properly. Take them apart and look at this spot which often needs a quality lubrication and a polish with fine Wet and Dry paper. In fact, do this immediately you purchase a new one. If you start feeling drag on the press handle when withdrawing the case it usually means that the collet cone and the top cone are sticking so immediately take them apart and examine and polish and lube. It is a good idea to do this as a regular thing.

Lee Collet dies, despite their cheapness, have a lot of potential both accuracy wise and when experimenting with non standard cases.

While often not of the very best quality themselves they operate on geometric principles which are always inherently accurate. Similarly with much of the other Lee products.
They are of most use when using moderate loads and only occasionally FL size.

If you are running very hot loads their usefulness declines.

I used them a lot once and am still happy to use them but have gravitated now to dies which I make giving an absolute minimal FL sizing and neck squeeze.
I do not use an expander ball anywhere these days BUT this is only possible with quality (unturned) brass and you need to check its consistency.

Consideration of how to size depends very much on the extraction qualities of your rifle. They are not all equal !
Many rifles were originally intended to fire once only used brass and never needed huge extraction force. Like the Omark.

Peter Smith.